Artifacts

**jb2cool** · November 28th, 2006, 08:54 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Alastair)

On a serious note you could name the project based on some of the artefacts.

For instance
- Ashworth Ironstone Hanley Project (based on the hallmark on the pottery)
- The Lost voyage of the Staffordshire volunteer regiment

Cheers
Al

Why wait for the dives?

Do we have any further info about these artifacts that have already been recovered? I'd be interested in the pottery as the marking on it should be able to give us a reasonably limited time 'window'.

So far to me it looks like this could date back to the 1860's but not earlier and not really much later. A better understanding of what we currently know might help to pinpoint a time period a little better.

Andy Kerslake · November 29th, 2006, 03:07 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by jb2cool)

Why wait for the dives?

Do we have any further info about these artifacts that have already been recovered? I'd be interested in the pottery as the marking on it should be able to give us a reasonably limited time 'window'.

So far to me it looks like this could date back to the 1860's but not earlier and not really much later. A better understanding of what we currently know might help to pinpoint a time period a little better.

There is already a marine plate which has been identified and dated (in 1997) by the Senior Assistant Keeper of Ceramics at Stoke-on-Trent the date is January 1867, so the ship could not have sunk before then :-) In addition one of the items has a makers mark on it which were only in use from 1862 - 1880.

The military belt buckles have an approximate date of between 1855 - 1864 (probably) the exact dates are not recorded.

So we still have a possible window between 1867 - 1880, although its fairly likely that this it is late 1860's perhaps early 70's.

Andy

*JGrogan* · November 29th, 2006, 04:52 PM

There are a number of crates of port on the ship too. The bottles are of a design used in the mid-late 1800's. I sent one to Warres in 1997 (through a contact who was doing some work for them), but we never heard back from them.

Perhaps some of the guys in Portugal can help us on this one?

John.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Kerslake)

There is already a marine plate which has been identified and dated (in 1997) by the Senior Assistant Keeper of Ceramics at Stoke-on-Trent the date is January 1867, so the ship could not have sunk before then :-) In addition one of the items has a makers mark on it which were only in use from 1862 - 1880.

The military belt buckles have an approximate date of between 1855 - 1864 (probably) the exact dates are not recorded.

So we still have a possible window between 1867 - 1880, although its fairly likely that this it is late 1860's perhaps early 70's.

Andy

Janos · November 29th, 2006, 05:03 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan)

Perhaps some of the guys in Portugal can help us on this one?

If you get stuck the Coto Chrisover on YD, although not DIR, is a Port exporter and knows one or two things about the business.

Janos

**jb2cool** · November 29th, 2006, 05:09 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Kerslake)

we still have a possible window between 1867 - 1880, although its fairly likely that this it is late 1860's perhaps early 70's.

Nice one. This will help.

Any further info you have that might narrow this down or aid in identifying this then i'm happy to do web research and running around for you. This might then lead to targets to look out for on the dives.

Andy C · November 29th, 2006, 05:52 PM

Are there Lloyds (or similar) records of losses at sea for this period ?
I'm assuming they record the cargo as well as the ships details, especially as the cargo could be worth more than the ship.

If I'm covering old ground here, I apologise.

Andy

*JGrogan* · November 29th, 2006, 06:19 PM

Part of the problem is that losses at sea were often poorly recorded and were often reported far from where the loss actually occurred.

There are no reports of military vessels lost in that area that match what we know of the ship and certainly nothing that links to the Staffordshire regiment.

Ideally, of course, we should like to find the bell or some other artifact that makes it easier to identify. A proper survey may help us narrow down the ships description and then we can search on that.
John.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy C)

Are there Lloyds (or similar) records of losses at sea for this period ?
I'm assuming they record the cargo as well as the ships details, especially as the cargo could be worth more than the ship.

If I'm covering old ground here, I apologise.

Andy

Constantino · November 29th, 2006, 09:36 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan)

Perhaps some of the guys in Portugal can help us on this one?

John.

Hi John,

Of course - happy to help (I like to see the Global thing kicking in again :-))
Do you have any pics, description, marks, ids, whatever that we can use.
The cork (if still there) can also help shed some light.
How about the crates - any marks / pics etc.
Please send to ricardo@entrada.tv
I'll start looking for a contact in one of the (many) Port wine "houses".

Best,
Ricardo

*JGrogan* · November 29th, 2006, 10:51 PM

Hi Ricardo,
I don't have any pictures, but we will have some by next August :-)

The bottles are about 25-30cm in height with a narrow bulbous body; volume is no more than 1/2 litre. There was a wax seal around the bottle top, but the cork was compromised, so the port had gone off (BTW, 140 year old compromised port REALLY stinks!).

The crates rotted away long ago and only the steel wire that went around the outside remains. Needless to say, there are no labels left on the bottles.

These things are old - almost as old as Kerslake

If you have 1 or 2 port houses that would be interested in having a look, I'd be happy to send some bottles over to you (well packaged of course!)

Best,
John.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Constantino)

Hi John,

Of course - happy to help (I like to see the Global thing kicking in again :-))
Do you have any pics, description, marks, ids, whatever that we can use.
The cork (if still there) can also help shed some light.
How about the crates - any marks / pics etc.
Please send to ricardo@entrada.tv
I'll start looking for a contact in one of the (many) Port wine "houses".

Best,
Ricardo

stevechesh · May 1st, 2008, 10:06 PM

wasn't really sure where to post this for continuity, but i thought this was as good a place as any. There are a few threads on different forums with regard to this ship that i'm involved with. I'll try and post over the info here so everyones up to date......

With regard to the Port bottles, i've got 4 of them, and i'll take some piccies if anyone needs them for ID purposes. I'm also happy to post them out to wherever, if that would help, however, i would have to check with the UK Receiver of Wreck that this is ok, as i declare all the tat i recover (mind you, i doubt there will be any problems with this) and i am not the legal owner of the items, only the "custodian", until i hear otherwise.

From the Times: Monday 19th Jan 1874

I've been in touch with the German Maritime Museum over the past few months on a couple of different ships, so i've asked if they can shed any light on the dimensions and/or cargo of the Haydn. The kind lady is looking into it, and i'll post back when i hear anything.
Heard absolutely nothing from Woolwich Arsenal (re: the artillery shells), despite letters, emails and phone calls. . . .

I'd like to get back out there really soon (tins filled and ready to go now!), but chartering a boat by myself would cost me a few quid, and the missus is getting a bit suspicious of the £20 a dive i've been telling her these trips cost.

If anyone is interested in going out there before your August trip, then let me know and i'll see if i can get a trip together.......

November 28th, 2006, 08:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
jb2cool (Online) Padawan learner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire Posts: 797	Quote: (Originally Posted by Alastair) On a serious note you could name the project based on some of the artefacts. For instance - Ashworth Ironstone Hanley Project (based on the hallmark on the pottery) - The Lost voyage of the Staffordshire volunteer regiment Cheers Al Why wait for the dives? Do we have any further info about these artifacts that have already been recovered? I'd be interested in the pottery as the marking on it should be able to give us a reasonably limited time 'window'. So far to me it looks like this could date back to the 1860's but not earlier and not really much later. A better understanding of what we currently know might help to pinpoint a time period a little better. __________________ http://jb2cool.bulldoghome.com

November 29th, 2006, 05:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
Janos(Offline) "Two Sheds" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 400	Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan) Perhaps some of the guys in Portugal can help us on this one? If you get stuck the Coto Chrisover on YD, although not DIR, is a Port exporter and knows one or two things about the business. Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed Last edited by Janos; November 29th, 2006 at 05:11 PM.

November 29th, 2006, 05:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
jb2cool (Online) Padawan learner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire Posts: 797	Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Kerslake) we still have a possible window between 1867 - 1880, although its fairly likely that this it is late 1860's perhaps early 70's. Nice one. This will help. Any further info you have that might narrow this down or aid in identifying this then i'm happy to do web research and running around for you. This might then lead to targets to look out for on the dives. __________________ http://jb2cool.bulldoghome.com

November 29th, 2006, 05:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
Andy C(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Harby, Leicestershire, working in Leeds Posts: 142	Are there Lloyds (or similar) records of losses at sea for this period ? I'm assuming they record the cargo as well as the ships details, especially as the cargo could be worth more than the ship. If I'm covering old ground here, I apologise. Andy __________________ "When the Government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the Government, there is tyranny" - Thomas Jefferson

November 29th, 2006, 03:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
Andy Kerslake(Offline) Wreck and Cave Diver Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK Posts: 93	Quote: (Originally Posted by jb2cool) Why wait for the dives? Do we have any further info about these artifacts that have already been recovered? I'd be interested in the pottery as the marking on it should be able to give us a reasonably limited time 'window'. So far to me it looks like this could date back to the 1860's but not earlier and not really much later. A better understanding of what we currently know might help to pinpoint a time period a little better. There is already a marine plate which has been identified and dated (in 1997) by the Senior Assistant Keeper of Ceramics at Stoke-on-Trent the date is January 1867, so the ship could not have sunk before then :-) In addition one of the items has a makers mark on it which were only in use from 1862 - 1880. The military belt buckles have an approximate date of between 1855 - 1864 (probably) the exact dates are not recorded. So we still have a possible window between 1867 - 1880, although its fairly likely that this it is late 1860's perhaps early 70's. Andy

November 29th, 2006, 04:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
JGrogan(Offline) GUE Join Date: May 2006 Location: London Posts: 439	There are a number of crates of port on the ship too. The bottles are of a design used in the mid-late 1800's. I sent one to Warres in 1997 (through a contact who was doing some work for them), but we never heard back from them. Perhaps some of the guys in Portugal can help us on this one? John. Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Kerslake) There is already a marine plate which has been identified and dated (in 1997) by the Senior Assistant Keeper of Ceramics at Stoke-on-Trent the date is January 1867, so the ship could not have sunk before then :-) In addition one of the items has a makers mark on it which were only in use from 1862 - 1880. The military belt buckles have an approximate date of between 1855 - 1864 (probably) the exact dates are not recorded. So we still have a possible window between 1867 - 1880, although its fairly likely that this it is late 1860's perhaps early 70's. Andy

November 29th, 2006, 06:19 PM	#7 (permalink)
JGrogan(Offline) GUE Join Date: May 2006 Location: London Posts: 439	Part of the problem is that losses at sea were often poorly recorded and were often reported far from where the loss actually occurred. There are no reports of military vessels lost in that area that match what we know of the ship and certainly nothing that links to the Staffordshire regiment. Ideally, of course, we should like to find the bell or some other artifact that makes it easier to identify. A proper survey may help us narrow down the ships description and then we can search on that. John. Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy C) Are there Lloyds (or similar) records of losses at sea for this period ? I'm assuming they record the cargo as well as the ships details, especially as the cargo could be worth more than the ship. If I'm covering old ground here, I apologise. Andy

November 29th, 2006, 09:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
Constantino(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Portugal Posts: 65	Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan) Perhaps some of the guys in Portugal can help us on this one? John. Hi John, Of course - happy to help (I like to see the Global thing kicking in again :-)) Do you have any pics, description, marks, ids, whatever that we can use. The cork (if still there) can also help shed some light. How about the crates - any marks / pics etc. Please send to ricardo@entrada.tv I'll start looking for a contact in one of the (many) Port wine "houses". Best, Ricardo

November 29th, 2006, 10:51 PM	#9 (permalink)
JGrogan(Offline) GUE Join Date: May 2006 Location: London Posts: 439	Hi Ricardo, I don't have any pictures, but we will have some by next August :-) The bottles are about 25-30cm in height with a narrow bulbous body; volume is no more than 1/2 litre. There was a wax seal around the bottle top, but the cork was compromised, so the port had gone off (BTW, 140 year old compromised port REALLY stinks!). The crates rotted away long ago and only the steel wire that went around the outside remains. Needless to say, there are no labels left on the bottles. These things are old - almost as old as Kerslake If you have 1 or 2 port houses that would be interested in having a look, I'd be happy to send some bottles over to you (well packaged of course!) Best, John. Quote: (Originally Posted by Constantino) Hi John, Of course - happy to help (I like to see the Global thing kicking in again :-)) Do you have any pics, description, marks, ids, whatever that we can use. The cork (if still there) can also help shed some light. How about the crates - any marks / pics etc. Please send to ricardo@entrada.tv I'll start looking for a contact in one of the (many) Port wine "houses". Best, Ricardo

May 1st, 2008, 10:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
stevechesh(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Somerset Posts: 34	wasn't really sure where to post this for continuity, but i thought this was as good a place as any. There are a few threads on different forums with regard to this ship that i'm involved with. I'll try and post over the info here so everyones up to date...... With regard to the Port bottles, i've got 4 of them, and i'll take some piccies if anyone needs them for ID purposes. I'm also happy to post them out to wherever, if that would help, however, i would have to check with the UK Receiver of Wreck that this is ok, as i declare all the tat i recover (mind you, i doubt there will be any problems with this) and i am not the legal owner of the items, only the "custodian", until i hear otherwise. From the Times: Monday 19th Jan 1874 I've been in touch with the German Maritime Museum over the past few months on a couple of different ships, so i've asked if they can shed any light on the dimensions and/or cargo of the Haydn. The kind lady is looking into it, and i'll post back when i hear anything. Heard absolutely nothing from Woolwich Arsenal (re: the artillery shells), despite letters, emails and phone calls. . . . I'd like to get back out there really soon (tins filled and ready to go now!), but chartering a boat by myself would cost me a few quid, and the missus is getting a bit suspicious of the £20 a dive i've been telling her these trips cost. If anyone is interested in going out there before your August trip, then let me know and i'll see if i can get a trip together.......