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  1. #1

    Cookie/rem placement

    Hello

    I have a question which might divide the waters. This is NOT mend as me pointing fingers, just a wondering.

    We are now in cave environment:

    The GUE procedure says (as I am told and have seen), that every member of a team puts a cookie on a T or jump. This to see if all of the team member are out. Right?

    The problem as I am seeing it, is if several teams are in the cave at the same time. Lets say 5 teams with 3 divers in each team. 15 cookies before every T are placed or making a jump. It takes time to place the cookies and time to find your cookie again. You might take a wrong cookie when inbound (Yes, shit might happens sometimes when you are heading out of the cave)? Yes, you can see if all your team members have taken their cookie but you might not notice if 15 other cookies are on the line. If you figure out that you lost your buddy at the first T, where are your team awareness?

    Number 1 diver (or Captain) places a cookie or rem. When outbound, the other two divers ok the placement with the light and heads on. When inbound, number 1 becomes number 3. The new 1 and 2 places themselves on the exit side. Now the divers functions as two giant cookies.

    If I cant find my buddy after a search, I would place cookies along the line inbound. When the lost diver hopefully find the line again he/she will notice the cookies/rems and line arrows which the other team members have placed. He now knows the team are aware that he was lost.

    I myself was taught cave diving in the UTD. I am not saying the UTD way are the right way. Not at all. I am just wondering about the procedures in GUE.

    Thank you all ..safe diving!

  2. #2
    CDG & UKMC use ... this

    with elastic band, and diver's initials

    works perfect with any water temp
    takes 0.5 - 0.75 s per diver to do the job including zero-viz


    ^^

  3. #3
    I think I'd pick another cave passage if there were 12 other dudes going down the one I was considering.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by PfcAJ View Post
    I think I'd pick another cave passage if there were 12 other dudes going down the one I was considering.
    I understand, but lets say that 25 meters in you have the first T and no where else to jump from the line from entry - there you place the Rem/cookie. That is not unusual..

  5. #5
    I'm not really sure I understand your question.

    Are you saying that at popular sites you use a team cookie, rather than individual cookies?

    Is this something you always do? or is it just at a popular site?

    I suppose it would be like sharing a reel/spool with another team, so long as everybody is on the same page it shouldn't be an issue, but you would need to be sure that everybody is aware of how they should be handling emergency situations and, to me at least, it seems to be an unnecessary complication - I like the KISS principle.
    cheers,
    Paul

    ------------------------------------------------
    The three great lies of diving:
    1. A "Dry" suit
    2. "Stainless" steel
    3. After you have brought the kit, diving is cheap.

  6. #6
    Hi Paul.

    I am saying is that we are always are using a team cookie. One team - one cookie.

    We NEVER use anybody else reel or spool!!! If we want to make a jump where somebody else have made a jump we use our own reel/spool.

    My question was: why are GUE using individual cookies instead of team cookies? What are the philosophy behind? What are the advantages/disadvantages?

    Thank you

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by C.B View Post
    Hi Paul.

    I am saying is that we are always are using a team cookie. One team - one cookie.

    We NEVER use anybody else reel or spool!!! If we want to make a jump where somebody else have made a jump we use our own reel/spool.

    My question was: why are GUE using individual cookies instead of team cookies? What are the philosophy behind? What are the advantages/disadvantages?

    Thank you
    individual cookies help ensure that each member of the team is actively involved with the navigation decision. That's a pretty big reason. Additionally, in event of some sort of separation its a possible indicator if your separated buddy has headed out, and by collecting your cookie you can let them know you've headed out if they're farther in the cave.

    Team cookies are faster and might prevent confusion when there's multiple teams in the water going down the same passage.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PfcAJ View Post
    individual cookies help ensure that each member of the team is actively involved with the navigation decision. That's a pretty big reason.
    That's the primary reason I was taught in C1

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dm_ View Post
    CDG & UKMC use ... this

    with elastic band, and diver's initials

    works perfect with any water temp
    takes 0.5 - 0.75 s per diver to do the job including zero-viz


    ^^
    Just a quick point on using clothes pegs...

    They really are a far from perfect system. They're easy to dislodge unless time is spent placing them inside the braid of the line (impossible on nylon line used in many continental, US and Mexican caves) or having the line wrapped around them (again impossible in caves with tight laid line). Without using one of these methods in zero vis you can push them up the line with your hands when looking for them with thick gloves on without feeling them.

    Further more they cannot be personally identified by touch like you can make cookies/REMs.

    They also don't work very well on very thin line.

    Strengthened with elastic bands instead of snoopy loops they won't last long, elastic bands are crap.

    They were developed with a solo mentality for sumps with normally only a single diver in them with a lot more simple navigational protocols than many US and Mexican caves, a huge variance in line and normally with little to no flow. Cookies and REMs don't work everywhere and neither do clothes pegs.

    On personal vs team markers, team markers are faster. But they don't tag divers in and out a junction which could help in a lost diver scenario and they also don't force each individual diver acknowledge a navigational decision, of course, you could develop some convoluted series of hand signals to ensure each diver acknowledges the navigational decision, but why complicate things?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by OutOfTest View Post
    Just a quick point on using clothes pegs...

    They really are a far from perfect system.
    nothing is perfect :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by OutOfTest View Post
    impossible on nylon line used in many continental, US and Mexican caves)
    UK only

    Quote Originally Posted by OutOfTest View Post
    Further more they cannot be personally identified by touch like you can make cookies/REMs.
    with thick gloves in +7C water ... :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by OutOfTest View Post
    They also don't work very well on very thin line.
    thicker line is quite common for UK

    Quote Originally Posted by OutOfTest View Post
    Strengthened with elastic bands instead of snoopy loops they won't last long, elastic bands are crap.
    elastic band is for the peg, just to make the spring a bit "stronger". Not a replacement for the snoopy loop

    Quote Originally Posted by OutOfTest View Post
    On personal vs team markers, team markers are faster. But they don't tag divers in and out a junction which could help in a lost diver scenario and they also don't force each individual diver acknowledge a navigational decision, of course, you could develop some convoluted series of hand signals to ensure each diver acknowledges the navigational decision, but why complicate things?
    of course in a different environment (+20C water), thin gloves, plenty of space for team-related protocols/procedures, etc techniques can be quite different, no objections

 

 

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