Is DIR winning...?

***Bob Cooper*** · November 25th, 2005, 02:01 PM

I was reminded of something today which I think sums up where we are with DIR in the UK.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mahatma Ghandi)

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then YOU win.

Where do you think we are? Are we being ignored? Are we being laughed at? Are we fighting? or are we winning?

I know what I think.

Bob

PS. That quote also appears in the current Robbie Williams single "tripping".

*JohnKendall* · November 25th, 2005, 02:08 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bob Cooper)

I was reminded of something today which I think sums up where we are with DIR in the UK.

Where do you think we are? Are we being ignored? Are we being laughed at? Are we fighting? or are we winning?

I know what I think.

Bob

PS. That quote also appears in the current Robbie Williams single "tripping".

Hmmm, I think we are between the Fighting and Winning stage. In some circles we are definiately "winning" (or at least have become tolerated) in others we are very much still being ignored.

Well that's my thought anyway.

J

Gareth Burrows · November 25th, 2005, 02:09 PM

Personally, I think it's complicated. to the UK diving scene, DIR is hardly even heard of. It has a deceptively large presence due to the fact that DIR divers tend to be IT literate and have a large presence of boards such as Yorkshire Divers and divernet. The reality is that I meet people all the time that have simply never heard of it.

I think, if I'm being honest that this board is a very positive move because some DIR divers do not integrate well with other divers and basically rub them up the wrong way, as well as intimidate them. Discussions on here are able to focus on DIR without disruption, and the non-DIR boards do not feel intimidated or rubbed up the wrong way, which works for everyone. thus, online, I feel we are on the way to winning, if you define winning as existing harmoniously with other agencies and approaches to diving. Online, the fight appears to be drawing to a close.

Out in the real world, I meet everything from Ignorance to laughter, so we are at an early stage. go into an average dive club in the UK and explain that you are "Doing It Right" and you will almost certainly get laughed at. That doesn't mean anyone is correct or incorrect in their judgements. It just means DIr doesn't have the real world presence that the online presence might suggest. It also has a lot to do with cost. The fact remains that DIR is an expensive way to approach diving. Cost is not an issue, doing it correctly is. This does not fit in with the way in which the vast majority of divers dive, nor will it ever do so. Thus, we will never see the majority of divers "Doing It RIght". But we can "win" in that we can be seen as a medium for skilled and safe divers. That is something that will have to happen naturally over time.

Just my tuppence

Divingniknaks · November 25th, 2005, 02:21 PM

I get quite a few calls from the DIRcurious out there as I know others do. So I'd vote for somewhere between Fighting and Winning to be honest.

Having been on other boards for a while I think I've seen a lot of the Laughing stage and a fair bit of fighting and it's strange because quite a few people who I've seen laugh have gradually started to come round to the idea.

I can go by club experience as well, being ripped to bits for the long hose and then seeing 3 Instructors all adopt it quietly after a few conversations over beer.

I'm also quite intrigued by the (to me) obvious geographical split in the UK, the majority of GUE trained divers seem to be Midlands and Northwards. Or is that just a misconception on my part ? Logically I would have expected a Southern slant given more disposable income (alledgedly) to spend on training.

Sorry I'm hijacking here.

Good thought though Bob.

Gary Moffat · November 25th, 2005, 02:30 PM

errmmm... Google Fight...

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...d2=BSAC+Diving

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...d2=PADI+Diving

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...rd2=TDI+Diving

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...ScotSAC+Diving

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...reather+Diving

Helen · November 25th, 2005, 02:34 PM

Back in the depths of time when i joined YD, i had no idea what DIR was, and had no interest in it either, i was happy with where i was. I didnt even have the sense to ask what it was, and simply waited for someone else to ask. I think that is the norm, people who learn to dive do so through BSAC or PADI, and if they never dive outside of that kind of environment they will never even hear of GUE or DIR (although the new open water course might change this).

There are an awful lot of divers out there who are happy to strap a 12litre to their buddy commando and jump into 12m for an hour. Not everyone wants to progress beyond that. Since back things have moved on a bit for me, and again i have experienced everything from people coming over to talk to me in the car park at St Abbs and fondle my kit, ask questions etc, to the ex club people laughing at me doing frog kick - "we do English Kick here thanks" and them never having heard of any of it.

I guess for my level of diving, it really doesn't matter a jot, as long as you are safe. For the cutting edge exploration, i think a few people are sitting up and taking notice. Quite what stage they are at, i have no idea.

Gary Moffat · November 25th, 2005, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Today DIR in the UK is growing and has a community of interested divers spread across the country.

Is it winning.. Dose it matter as long as the system is a winning for you and isn't it nice to be part of this at the beginning and knowing it will grow and grow iin the UK.

vid · November 25th, 2005, 03:13 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gunsentry)

isn't it nice to be part of this at the beginning and knowing it will grow and grow iin the UK.

interesting concept that it will grow and grow - to what extent does GUE wish to become a mainstream training organisation in the mould of a padi/bsac/cmas etc - at present there's a handful of instructors (ok - quite a large hand) but would the high standards (and the standards are high) drop if GUE became the next padi

vid

vid · November 25th, 2005, 03:15 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Divingniknaks)

Logically I would have expected a Southern slant given more disposable income (alledgedly) to spend on training.

quite right there is more dsposable income as a % of GDP in the south, and most of the southern softies have gone and bought RBs

vid

*JohnKendall* · November 25th, 2005, 03:19 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by vid)

interesting concept that it will grow and grow - to what extent does GUE wish to become a mainstream training organisation in the mould of a padi/bsac/cmas etc - at present there's a handful of instructors (ok - quite a large hand) but would the high standards (and the standards are high) drop if GUE became the next padi

vid

GUE don't really care about Market share. What they are about is providing quality education, exploration and research.

As someone who is trying to get onto the Instructor ladder with GUE, I can tell you that there are no plans to drop any of the standards for the instructors, if anything they are getting more stringent.

I think GUE will grow, quite a lot, but it will never be "mainstream", however a lot of the principles are now spreading around the industry, particularly in technical instruction. A lot of things that GUE do are being slowing copied and integrated into other instructors courses.

J

November 25th, 2005, 02:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
*Bob Cooper*(Offline) Moderator - "Don't stop me now!" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: South East London, UK Posts: 828	I was reminded of something today which I think sums up where we are with DIR in the UK. Quote: (Originally Posted by Mahatma Ghandi) First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then YOU win. Where do you think we are? Are we being ignored? Are we being laughed at? Are we fighting? or are we winning? I know what I think. Bob PS. That quote also appears in the current Robbie Williams single "tripping". Last edited by techadmin; November 25th, 2005 at 02:05 PM.. Reason: did fancy quote

November 25th, 2005, 02:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
Gareth Burrows(Offline) UK GUE Instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: East Sussex Posts: 425	Personally, I think it's complicated. to the UK diving scene, DIR is hardly even heard of. It has a deceptively large presence due to the fact that DIR divers tend to be IT literate and have a large presence of boards such as Yorkshire Divers and divernet. The reality is that I meet people all the time that have simply never heard of it. I think, if I'm being honest that this board is a very positive move because some DIR divers do not integrate well with other divers and basically rub them up the wrong way, as well as intimidate them. Discussions on here are able to focus on DIR without disruption, and the non-DIR boards do not feel intimidated or rubbed up the wrong way, which works for everyone. thus, online, I feel we are on the way to winning, if you define winning as existing harmoniously with other agencies and approaches to diving. Online, the fight appears to be drawing to a close. Out in the real world, I meet everything from Ignorance to laughter, so we are at an early stage. go into an average dive club in the UK and explain that you are "Doing It Right" and you will almost certainly get laughed at. That doesn't mean anyone is correct or incorrect in their judgements. It just means DIr doesn't have the real world presence that the online presence might suggest. It also has a lot to do with cost. The fact remains that DIR is an expensive way to approach diving. Cost is not an issue, doing it correctly is. This does not fit in with the way in which the vast majority of divers dive, nor will it ever do so. Thus, we will never see the majority of divers "Doing It RIght". But we can "win" in that we can be seen as a medium for skilled and safe divers. That is something that will have to happen naturally over time. Just my tuppence __________________ Garf GUE Instructor Last edited by Gareth Burrows; November 25th, 2005 at 02:16 PM..

November 25th, 2005, 02:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
Divingniknaks(Offline) Resident purveyor of shiney kit.... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midlands UK Posts: 1,040	I get quite a few calls from the DIRcurious out there as I know others do. So I'd vote for somewhere between Fighting and Winning to be honest. Having been on other boards for a while I think I've seen a lot of the Laughing stage and a fair bit of fighting and it's strange because quite a few people who I've seen laugh have gradually started to come round to the idea. I can go by club experience as well, being ripped to bits for the long hose and then seeing 3 Instructors all adopt it quietly after a few conversations over beer. I'm also quite intrigued by the (to me) obvious geographical split in the UK, the majority of GUE trained divers seem to be Midlands and Northwards. Or is that just a misconception on my part ? Logically I would have expected a Southern slant given more disposable income (alledgedly) to spend on training. Sorry I'm hijacking here. Good thought though Bob. __________________ Phill ----------------------------- Salvo Lights, DirZone Gear , Frog Wings Dive ? http://www.divingniknaks.com

November 25th, 2005, 02:34 PM	#6 (permalink)
Helen(Offline) "Like a diver... only shorter" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Scapa Flow, Orkney Posts: 102	Back in the depths of time when i joined YD, i had no idea what DIR was, and had no interest in it either, i was happy with where i was. I didnt even have the sense to ask what it was, and simply waited for someone else to ask. I think that is the norm, people who learn to dive do so through BSAC or PADI, and if they never dive outside of that kind of environment they will never even hear of GUE or DIR (although the new open water course might change this). There are an awful lot of divers out there who are happy to strap a 12litre to their buddy commando and jump into 12m for an hour. Not everyone wants to progress beyond that. Since back things have moved on a bit for me, and again i have experienced everything from people coming over to talk to me in the car park at St Abbs and fondle my kit, ask questions etc, to the ex club people laughing at me doing frog kick - "we do English Kick here thanks" and them never having heard of any of it. I guess for my level of diving, it really doesn't matter a jot, as long as you are safe. For the cutting edge exploration, i think a few people are sitting up and taking notice. Quite what stage they are at, i have no idea. __________________ You can dive any way you want to. Just don't expect me to be down there with you....

November 25th, 2005, 02:08 PM	#2 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,614	Quote: (Originally Posted by Bob Cooper) I was reminded of something today which I think sums up where we are with DIR in the UK. Where do you think we are? Are we being ignored? Are we being laughed at? Are we fighting? or are we winning? I know what I think. Bob PS. That quote also appears in the current Robbie Williams single "tripping". Hmmm, I think we are between the Fighting and Winning stage. In some circles we are definiately "winning" (or at least have become tolerated) in others we are very much still being ignored. Well that's my thought anyway. J

November 25th, 2005, 02:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
Gary Moffat(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: East Lothian Posts: 120	errmmm... Google Fight... http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...d2=BSAC+Diving http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...d2=PADI+Diving http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...rd2=TDI+Diving http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...ScotSAC+Diving http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...reather+Diving

November 25th, 2005, 02:45 PM	#7 (permalink)
Gary Moffat(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: East Lothian Posts: 120	Quote: Today DIR in the UK is growing and has a community of interested divers spread across the country. Is it winning.. Dose it matter as long as the system is a winning for you and isn't it nice to be part of this at the beginning and knowing it will grow and grow iin the UK.

November 25th, 2005, 03:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
vid(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: london/surrey border, UK Posts: 356	Quote: (Originally Posted by Gunsentry) isn't it nice to be part of this at the beginning and knowing it will grow and grow iin the UK. interesting concept that it will grow and grow - to what extent does GUE wish to become a mainstream training organisation in the mould of a padi/bsac/cmas etc - at present there's a handful of instructors (ok - quite a large hand) but would the high standards (and the standards are high) drop if GUE became the next padi vid

November 25th, 2005, 03:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
vid(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: london/surrey border, UK Posts: 356	Quote: (Originally Posted by Divingniknaks) Logically I would have expected a Southern slant given more disposable income (alledgedly) to spend on training. quite right there is more dsposable income as a % of GDP in the south, and most of the southern softies have gone and bought RBs vid

November 25th, 2005, 03:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,614	Quote: (Originally Posted by vid) interesting concept that it will grow and grow - to what extent does GUE wish to become a mainstream training organisation in the mould of a padi/bsac/cmas etc - at present there's a handful of instructors (ok - quite a large hand) but would the high standards (and the standards are high) drop if GUE became the next padi vid GUE don't really care about Market share. What they are about is providing quality education, exploration and research. As someone who is trying to get onto the Instructor ladder with GUE, I can tell you that there are no plans to drop any of the standards for the instructors, if anything they are getting more stringent. I think GUE will grow, quite a lot, but it will never be "mainstream", however a lot of the principles are now spreading around the industry, particularly in technical instruction. A lot of things that GUE do are being slowing copied and integrated into other instructors courses. J