hogarthian rig right or wrong - Page 10

lizardland · January 16th, 2010, 05:58 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I stand corrected. Must be a recent thing. I have never met an OW diver trainied by IANTD

ATB

Mark

They've been offering it for years, when I was looking at becoming an IANTD instructor they were offering, probably 2000.

lamont · January 18th, 2010, 08:13 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I totaly agree but in BSAC the non tec divers out number the tec divers 500-1

Why compromise for the 1 to the detriment of the 500?

Exactly how do you think it is a detriment to them?

sk001 · February 25th, 2010, 03:58 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I totaly agree but in BSAC the non tec divers out number the tec divers 500-1

Why compromise for the 1 to the detriment of the 500?

The Hog looped tec divers you see are not PADI or BSAC trained. They are usually IANTD or TDI which don't have novice diver level training. like PADI CMAS or BSAC

I know a few BSAC Tec divers who have only trained with BSAC. Most don't use a long hose.

I have the great pleasure of diving often with Paul Oliver the old DO of Canterbury BSAC and on Tec1 level dives hes still to be found with his bright yellow octo reg and short hose primary.

Mind you one of the most accomplished and knowledgeable divers in the Dover area Dave Bachelor still dives with a 15 and pony on a BUDY jacket BCD.

I don't think he has a long hose either, but he has a lot of Bells :D

ATB

Mark

i have friends who did their PADI OW with a hog loop. its not prohibited under the PADI curriculum afaik.

Mark Chase · February 25th, 2010, 10:43 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by lamont)

Exactly how do you think it is a detriment to them?

Because the 500 were not trained in the skills required for acceptance or donation of a long hose.

This is going round in circles. I have a load of GUE divers and a 20year vet hoigarthian cave diver telling me they see long hose rigs on sub 50dive experience OW divers and have done since the 80s

How can i argue with that.

I was obviously very odd in that despite diving all over the world from China to the UK it took me 13 years to see my first long hose rig. I must be odd still today as I am strangely able to get on a recreational warm water dive boat last year and see all the divers in jacket BCDs with short hose rigs and meet two dive guides who didn't even know what a long hose rig was for.

ATB

Mark

*JGrogan* · February 25th, 2010, 05:27 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Because the 500 were not trained in the skills required for acceptance or donation of a long hose.

Mark,

Do you think that BSAC divers have been specifically trained to not take a RB mouthpiece out of their buddy's mouth? Or do you think that in some cases, desperation will make them grab at anything?

Another issue to consider is that there are quite a myriad of combinations in use in BSAC clubs. Shouldn't we then specifically teach the skills required to use all of these? I'm not sure how banning one of many will fix this problem; you could only fix it by agreeing on a standard.

John.

lizardland · February 25th, 2010, 09:58 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan)

Another issue to consider is that there are quite a myriad of combinations in use in BSAC clubs. Shouldn't we then specifically teach the skills required to use all of these? I'm not sure how banning one of many will fix this problem; you could only fix it by agreeing on a standard.

I'm also confused by that as well. The number of different combinations of pony bottle, cylinder, AIRII and Buddy Commando on display on the average club trip is sometimes more than what you'd think was mathematically possible. I really don't get why one more should cause any problem. Maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back. It's the novices, Captain... they cannae take any more...

Just wait until the question comes up with the Flat Earth Society a.k.a. Scot-SAC. They're still reeling over the introduction of single hose regs.

Mark Chase · February 26th, 2010, 05:05 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan)

Mark,

Do you think that BSAC divers have been specifically trained to not take a RB mouthpiece out of their buddy's mouth? Or do you think that in some cases, desperation will make them grab at anything?

Another issue to consider is that there are quite a myriad of combinations in use in BSAC clubs. Shouldn't we then specifically teach the skills required to use all of these? I'm not sure how banning one of many will fix this problem; you could only fix it by agreeing on a standard.

John.

You see...

Theres little old non GUE me constantly defending (the slightly daft) hog looped long hose system used by UTD and GUE on the RB80 and MEG units, because I can clearly see the attempt at continuity for divers progressing from entry level GUE diver through to RB80.

Then, a core GUE diver tries to convince me because other training systems have no continuity, its all OK to suport significantly altering their diving practices

Its just not OK in my book

Standardization and continuity are key stones of safe diving.

I love the long hose system but it needs to be taught across the board from day one or not at all.

For GUE divers who should have standardization ingrained in their psyche to try and excuse fundamental change mid way through development? well it just seems very wrong to me.

ATB

Mark

Ali Fikree · February 26th, 2010, 06:51 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

You see...

Standardization and continuity are key stones of safe diving.

Mark

Standardization and continuity in training or rebreather setup? I am targeting the above post not the whole thread.

A

*JGrogan* · February 26th, 2010, 08:16 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Then, a core GUE diver tries to convince me because other training systems have no continuity, its all OK to suport significantly altering their diving practices

Its just not OK in my book

Standardization and continuity are key stones of safe diving. I love the long hose system but it needs to be taught across the board from day one or not at all.

For GUE divers who should have standardization ingrained in their psyche to try and excuse fundamental change mid way through development? well it just seems very wrong to me.

ATB

Mark

I don't think anyone is supporting a significant change in direction part way through changing but rather, high-lighting the fatuousness of claiming that by banning one of (possibly) hundreds of combinations, we're making it safer.

I think we're all smart enough to realise that when you (barely) scratch beneath the surface of the BSAC's decision, you find that it's very poorly thought-through, there is no continuity in their thinking and it just doesn't hold up.

I agree with you on standardisation and, frankly, GUE and UTD are the only organisations promoting a given standard through out training.

John.

***Fiona*** · February 26th, 2010, 08:33 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan)

Mark,

Do you think that BSAC divers have been specifically trained to not take a RB mouthpiece out of their buddy's mouth? Or do you think that in some cases, desperation will make them grab at anything?

Another issue to consider is that there are quite a myriad of combinations in use in BSAC clubs. Shouldn't we then specifically teach the skills required to use all of these? I'm not sure how banning one of many will fix this problem; you could only fix it by agreeing on a standard.

John.

I think the point being RB and OC divers shouldn't be diving together. I have dived with someone on a rebreather a few times, but never briefed on what to do in an emergency, although I know enough not to have taken the mouthpiece, because he would have been mightily pissed if I had flooded the loop

There may be a myriad of combinations but the regulator which is deemed to be the "alternative" is the same (not the primary) although not necessarily in the same place whatever combination is being used.

They also have made it clear they aren't banning anything, you can dive any configuration you like just not in a training environment.

You just have to accept that the majority of divers on this forum will not agree with their decision.

You really are

January 16th, 2010, 05:58 PM	#91 (permalink)
lizardland(Offline) LCS Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Evidently Chickentown Posts: 1,004	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I stand corrected. Must be a recent thing. I have never met an OW diver trainied by IANTD ATB Mark They've been offering it for years, when I was looking at becoming an IANTD instructor they were offering, probably 2000. __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk The Lot isn't the only place to dive: http://www.lulu.com/content/613554

February 25th, 2010, 10:43 AM	#94 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 1,069	Quote: (Originally Posted by lamont) Exactly how do you think it is a detriment to them? Because the 500 were not trained in the skills required for acceptance or donation of a long hose. This is going round in circles. I have a load of GUE divers and a 20year vet hoigarthian cave diver telling me they see long hose rigs on sub 50dive experience OW divers and have done since the 80s How can i argue with that. I was obviously very odd in that despite diving all over the world from China to the UK it took me 13 years to see my first long hose rig. I must be odd still today as I am strangely able to get on a recreational warm water dive boat last year and see all the divers in jacket BCDs with short hose rigs and meet two dive guides who didn't even know what a long hose rig was for. ATB Mark __________________ The only DIR Inspiration/Hammer head/KISS/rEvo/JJ diver in the village www.ourturkishvilla.co.uk

February 25th, 2010, 05:27 PM	#95 (permalink)
JGrogan(Offline) GUE Join Date: May 2006 Location: London Posts: 807	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Because the 500 were not trained in the skills required for acceptance or donation of a long hose. Mark, Do you think that BSAC divers have been specifically trained to not take a RB mouthpiece out of their buddy's mouth? Or do you think that in some cases, desperation will make them grab at anything? Another issue to consider is that there are quite a myriad of combinations in use in BSAC clubs. Shouldn't we then specifically teach the skills required to use all of these? I'm not sure how banning one of many will fix this problem; you could only fix it by agreeing on a standard. John. Last edited by JGrogan; February 25th, 2010 at 05:47 PM..

February 25th, 2010, 09:58 PM	#96 (permalink)
lizardland(Offline) LCS Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Evidently Chickentown Posts: 1,004	Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan) Another issue to consider is that there are quite a myriad of combinations in use in BSAC clubs. Shouldn't we then specifically teach the skills required to use all of these? I'm not sure how banning one of many will fix this problem; you could only fix it by agreeing on a standard. I'm also confused by that as well. The number of different combinations of pony bottle, cylinder, AIRII and Buddy Commando on display on the average club trip is sometimes more than what you'd think was mathematically possible. I really don't get why one more should cause any problem. Maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back. It's the novices, Captain... they cannae take any more... Just wait until the question comes up with the Flat Earth Society a.k.a. Scot-SAC. They're still reeling over the introduction of single hose regs. __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk The Lot isn't the only place to dive: http://www.lulu.com/content/613554

February 26th, 2010, 05:05 PM	#97 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 1,069	Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan) Mark, Do you think that BSAC divers have been specifically trained to not take a RB mouthpiece out of their buddy's mouth? Or do you think that in some cases, desperation will make them grab at anything? Another issue to consider is that there are quite a myriad of combinations in use in BSAC clubs. Shouldn't we then specifically teach the skills required to use all of these? I'm not sure how banning one of many will fix this problem; you could only fix it by agreeing on a standard. John. You see... Theres little old non GUE me constantly defending (the slightly daft) hog looped long hose system used by UTD and GUE on the RB80 and MEG units, because I can clearly see the attempt at continuity for divers progressing from entry level GUE diver through to RB80. Then, a core GUE diver tries to convince me because other training systems have no continuity, its all OK to suport significantly altering their diving practices Its just not OK in my book Standardization and continuity are key stones of safe diving. I love the long hose system but it needs to be taught across the board from day one or not at all. For GUE divers who should have standardization ingrained in their psyche to try and excuse fundamental change mid way through development? well it just seems very wrong to me. ATB Mark __________________ The only DIR Inspiration/Hammer head/KISS/rEvo/JJ diver in the village www.ourturkishvilla.co.uk

January 18th, 2010, 08:13 AM	#92 (permalink)
lamont(Offline) APLP Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 196	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I totaly agree but in BSAC the non tec divers out number the tec divers 500-1 Why compromise for the 1 to the detriment of the 500? Exactly how do you think it is a detriment to them?

February 25th, 2010, 03:58 AM	#93 (permalink)
sk001(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: SE Asia Posts: 33	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I totaly agree but in BSAC the non tec divers out number the tec divers 500-1 Why compromise for the 1 to the detriment of the 500? The Hog looped tec divers you see are not PADI or BSAC trained. They are usually IANTD or TDI which don't have novice diver level training. like PADI CMAS or BSAC I know a few BSAC Tec divers who have only trained with BSAC. Most don't use a long hose. I have the great pleasure of diving often with Paul Oliver the old DO of Canterbury BSAC and on Tec1 level dives hes still to be found with his bright yellow octo reg and short hose primary. Mind you one of the most accomplished and knowledgeable divers in the Dover area Dave Bachelor still dives with a 15 and pony on a BUDY jacket BCD. I don't think he has a long hose either, but he has a lot of Bells :D ATB Mark i have friends who did their PADI OW with a hog loop. its not prohibited under the PADI curriculum afaik.

February 26th, 2010, 06:51 PM	#98 (permalink)
Ali Fikree(Offline) Have gear will travel. Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Dubai Posts: 898	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) You see... Standardization and continuity are key stones of safe diving. Mark Standardization and continuity in training or rebreather setup? I am targeting the above post not the whole thread. A __________________ The important thing is not to stop questioning.—Albert Einstein Last edited by Ali Fikree; February 26th, 2010 at 06:56 PM..

February 26th, 2010, 08:16 PM	#99 (permalink)
JGrogan(Offline) GUE Join Date: May 2006 Location: London Posts: 807	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Then, a core GUE diver tries to convince me because other training systems have no continuity, its all OK to suport significantly altering their diving practices Its just not OK in my book Standardization and continuity are key stones of safe diving. I love the long hose system but it needs to be taught across the board from day one or not at all. For GUE divers who should have standardization ingrained in their psyche to try and excuse fundamental change mid way through development? well it just seems very wrong to me. ATB Mark I don't think anyone is supporting a significant change in direction part way through changing but rather, high-lighting the fatuousness of claiming that by banning one of (possibly) hundreds of combinations, we're making it safer. I think we're all smart enough to realise that when you (barely) scratch beneath the surface of the BSAC's decision, you find that it's very poorly thought-through, there is no continuity in their thinking and it just doesn't hold up. I agree with you on standardisation and, frankly, GUE and UTD are the only organisations promoting a given standard through out training. John.

February 26th, 2010, 08:33 PM	#100 (permalink)
*Fiona*(Offline) Sister of Darkness Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North West Posts: 1,908	Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan) Mark, Do you think that BSAC divers have been specifically trained to not take a RB mouthpiece out of their buddy's mouth? Or do you think that in some cases, desperation will make them grab at anything? Another issue to consider is that there are quite a myriad of combinations in use in BSAC clubs. Shouldn't we then specifically teach the skills required to use all of these? I'm not sure how banning one of many will fix this problem; you could only fix it by agreeing on a standard. John. I think the point being RB and OC divers shouldn't be diving together. I have dived with someone on a rebreather a few times, but never briefed on what to do in an emergency, although I know enough not to have taken the mouthpiece, because he would have been mightily pissed if I had flooded the loop There may be a myriad of combinations but the regulator which is deemed to be the "alternative" is the same (not the primary) although not necessarily in the same place whatever combination is being used. They also have made it clear they aren't banning anything, you can dive any configuration you like just not in a training environment. You just have to accept that the majority of divers on this forum will not agree with their decision. You really are __________________ Fiona It is impossible to make everything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. GUE Member DIVELIFE for everything you need and more