Michael-Fisch(Offline)

I have stated that:

"If you're DIR divers, you shouldn't have a PFO, be out of shape, smoke cigarettes, be grossly obese, dehydrated, injured, or drunk." I think that being under the influence of drugs is another automatic no-no.

I don't think that many DIR divers will have a problem with the above standard description, but at what point does someone who does not meet the above standard become a rule one exclusion?

What should a Fundamentals Instructor do when he discovers that a prospective student candidate not only is not DIR, but because of being overweight/smoking/drinking too much etc, doesn't have a chance of becoming DIR? In the old days, the answer was clear, throw the student out and refund his money. Now since there are so many more GUE Instructors, where should the line be drawn? What should the instructor do
who sees one of his Tech 2 students drunk on the 3rd evening of the course, or sees him smoking behind the car after a training dive?

If the instructor cuts the student some slack, when does this start perverting the DIR idea?
If the instructor is a hard ass, and doesn't cut the student some slack, how much damage to the GUE reputation will take place, not to ignore how much less will the instructor earn?

I personally feel that any one of the following are grounds enough to deny a certification, irrespective of how well the candidate dives:

have a PFO,
be out of shape,
smoke cigarettes,
be grossly obese,
be drunk/have a drinking problem,
stoned,
under the influence of drugs and some prescription medications,

Candidates who are currently dehydrated, or injured are IMO also not easy to find a solution for, maybe the certification should be withheld until the candidate is healthy again.

What do you think? Whats best for the organization, the candidate, and the instructor?


Michael

BTW, I am not an instructor for agency, do all my diving because I enjoy it, and don't plan to make money off students.

Mal Bridgeman(Offline)

Michael,

I am not sure whether English is your first language so some of the tone sounds wrong but I'll ignore it because I think it's a language thing rather than an intent thing.

There are two comments I would like to make though:

The PFO is detectable reliably via a surgical procedure only, I understand. Precluding divers because of it is unrealistic I fear.

Making money off students is not a nice way to describe the role of an instructor. Instructors choose the role because they have a passion for the activity and a passion to share that with others. They have invested their own time and effort gaining that knowledge and gaining the skills to share it safely. If they share it for free then the students are unable to place any real value on the info and also are unable to determine one person's free advice from the next.

Placing a value on that info gives comfoprt to both parties I think. I still don't know any instructors who got rich from being an instructor

Mal

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StephenT(Offline)

I believe GUE is a company actively sort out by students. I've never really seen huge amounts of advertising from the company (other than on internet forums and not from the actual company). Therefore i don't understand why students would seek GUE training if they weren't going to endorse the conditions.
I don't think you can kick divers out the agency because they are dehydrated though :>

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Fiona (Online)

I nearly responded to this the other day, but decided not to. Since you have raised the issue again I think I will.

Firstly I don't know about other countries but here in the UK the DIR boys and girls have made taken a huge step in not continuing the elitist, arrogant perception of DIR and GUE.

Second - what's rule one - should a non DIR trained person know ?

I am not DIR trained and if you were an instructor I would never even be able to apply.

Lets look at your issues.

Have a PFO - No but did undergo a recompression treatment which did result in me being tested, it was negative.

Be out of shape - Yes I have problems with both knees and have plates in both.

Smoke - NO

Be grossly obese - Yes

Be drunk / have a drink problem - No

Stoned - Never taken drugs

Under the inflence of prescription medication - Yes, I suffer from Migraines and take anti inflamatory drugs for my knee problem.

Injury - Yes the other week I couldn't go diving because occasionaly my knee locks and I can't walk.

What would your advice to someone like me be if I wanted to undertake some training.

__________________
Fiona

Resistance was Futile

Move Along YD GUE Member

StephenT(Offline)

"Be grossly obese - Yes" , bollox Fiona, no you are not

1 Don’t dive with strokes
2 Don’t listen to strokes
3 Nothing underwater is worth dying forhrozenie života
4 Always analyze your mix before every diveoju zmes
5 Don’t dive a rebreather unless you need it

6 Always look good (unofficial)
It's a old thing that only exists as a joke?

zzz i suck

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Mal Bridgeman(Offline)

I thought the original 6 were:

RULES:
1. DO NOT DIVE WITH UNSAFE DIVERS
2. DO NOT LISTEN TO UNSAFE DIVERS/ UNSAFE DIVEMASTERS/ UNSAFE INSTRUCTORS
3. NOTHING UNDERWATER IS WORTH DYING FOR
4. ALWAYS CHECK YOUR GEAR AND ANALYZE YOUR GAS BEFORE DIVING
5. DON’T DIVE A REBREATHER UNLESS YOU NEED IT
6. ALWAYS LOOK COOL

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Opinions and beliefs are correct at the time of posting but are subject to change without any notice or obligation on the part of the author.

Michael-Fisch(Offline)

Mal, with very few exceptions, GUE instructors are the best instructors in existance. Being the best, they are entitled to charge top dollar for their services and over here most of them do. I have never heard that their training was not worth what the students paid for it.

I agree that precluding divers because of undetected PFOs is a problem, but at some point in a new techdivers career, they should have a test done. Finding out you have a PFO after landing in the chamber after a 120M dive is the wrong time to be told you have a PFO and will never walk again.

I believe that the sooner you have the test done, the better.
It's rediculous to spend $20.000 on equipment diving and divetraining, then do a PFO test, and decide that you would rather avoid the surgical risk of getting it plugged. Your only real option then is to bite the bullet and sell your gear, or go back to doing conservative recreational dives always worrying about your next hit.

Since the general population has a 20% chance of having a PFO, 1 untested diver in 5 should not be diving, and that's way too many. If these divers are also diving the edge of the envelope, that's an awful lot of agony with crippled divers and heartbroken relatives.

How an instructor is supposed to sell a $500 PFO test, is something that I'm very grateful that I have never had to get involved in, but above the Cave1/Tech1 level it's a very good idea.

Michael

StephenT(Offline)

yes mal, people overlooking my posts before i edit them :>

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tim (Online)

Constructive help? I must admit that personally I've always regarded these guidelines as 'if these apply to you, you might want to think carefully about your safety in diving'. Ie, if DIR is about not accepting second best wherever a better/safer/more fun option for diving is available, these all seem valid health concerns to be addressed if possible.

The addressing of them is where I'd see the 'best' option being - if people want to stop smoking, lose weight, or get fitter to help their diving and dive safety surely a good instructor would be supportive of these goals and help the diver to acheive them?

I personally see no harm in a diving agency encouraging fitness and health, and stating openly that for demanding diving they're very important considerations. As much as I trust an instructor to tell me when they think my diving skills are up to a safe level for more demanding diving, I'd also trust them to be open if they felt my fitness or health could prejudice my safety underwater. It's my life on the line, I want to keep safe and get the best possible advice on whether I am being safe!

Tim

Clare Gledhill(Offline)

It has nothing to do with how many instructors there are. There are clearly defined standards available here which have been agreed as the basis for training within GUE. As instructors we are not only bound by the standards - but they are often the reason that we chose to teach for GUE and not some other agency.

Smoking is a no-no - as are recreational drugs. Diving under the influence of alchohol is downright stupid and would not be condoned under any agency.

A fitness requirement is a relative thing dependent on the level of diving pursued - which is why the fitness tests change as candidates move up the levels again on set standards which have been agreed by the agency.

To suggest that people require manadatory PFO checks to do recreation diving would be overkill - yet for more aggressive diving they would probably be best advised to get a check done.

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