Divingniknaks(Offline)

Yep they have

Damned just saw your edit .

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wilbo(Offline)

Ah. now it comes down to the use of words..

I always thought that the most easy to access pocket (the right) contained those tools most often required - i.e. the primary smb and the wetnotes.

maybe I got that bit wrong..

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neilh (Online)

Doesn't it always

Not wrong, no - I don't think the pocket contents were previously standardised. Several people I've spoken to had adopted the approach of right hand pocket for things you needed on the dive and left for safety/backup items.

I guess the difference is that now it's left hand for "utility" and right for "safety" and it comes down to what items fall into each category.

There's not going to be much left to "discuss" at this rate

JohnOll(Offline)

I can't tell you you're wrong, I completely agree. I too cary stuff I think I might need in the right pocket as I find it easier to access.

I think the new valve drill makes more sense though.

John.

Jecowling(Offline)

Removing a primary SMB from your left pocket and deploying it with one hand whilst keeping your finger on the trigger of a scooter on a 21m deco stop - now that I'd like to see!

Being facetious aside, most people on here have no wish to be awkward or begin to develop their own 'modified' version of DIR, but... unless people fully understand the detailed thinking behind the changes, to the point that they can see that the benefits of the change outweigh any problems (perceived or real) they may have with it, it is very difficult for thinking divers to accept the closed post from GUE and adopt the practices blindly.

If someone can't answer the question 'why do you do it that way?' to the curious diver approaching them at a dive site, and simply says 'because someone told me it's what I should do' without having an bulletproof answer, it makes us look exactly like the DIR stereotype of someone who follows a set of rules blindly because the angels came down from on high, spoke the word, and verily, it was so.

It may seem annoying that all these questions are asked when it has already been debated at length in instructor meetings, but hey - WE WEREN'T THERE! We need the GUE instructors to answer the questions generated by our debates so that we can see why these changes have been adopted. We need to feel happy that putting up with some (perceived or real) minor annoyances is worth it because it improves the system as a whole, and it's the integrity of the whole system that's the important thing. At the moment I'm guessing a lot of people aren't feeling that happiness.

Jen

neilh (Online)

Spot on Jen - they bring this on themselves by creating thinking divers

student(Offline)

One reason to carry safety stuff in the right pocket could be because it IS easier to access I guess....might be a bit of a PITA struggling to get stuff out of your right pocket when you REALLY need it...no mask situation or whatever...
Having said that, I think my primary SMB is staying in my right pocket

Brian Allen(Offline)

On the ITC with Richard Lundgren I was running a dive, did a pocket check and discovered that all 5 divers had various items in various pockets, and no one could remember where anyone else's stuff was. I then asked everyone to move stuff around so we were all similar which met with a bit of opposition as noone wanted to change their pockets from what they were used to.

I am sure that pockets had been discussed before, and was a constant problem with no one really wanting to lay down any rules, but it does create a genuine issue as GUE has become a truly global training organisation. Mine is just an example of how a group of divers from all over the world had one issue trying to dive with each other. As alot of big changes were being made (Valve drill) I am sure it was decided that they should try to iron out all the small issues at the same time.

It turns out that SMB left was the minority amongst all the divers internationally and it was only really the Brits and Lundgren that had SMB right. When you think about it standardisation is important so in an emergency for example we can all find each others spare mask or spool etc. Also it's really not that hard to get things out of a left pocket with multiple stages, you just reach inside, and if your SMB is connected as most of us dive when not practicing it's even easier (another can of worms???). It also makes sense for safety/emergency stuff to be easier to reach in the right pocket as when this is needed it is also needed more urgently.

Re the SMB and spool, it appears alot of people dive these connected and carry at least a spare spool.

HTH

Brian

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graham_hk(Offline)

Come to Philippines and I'll show you

BTW personally I can't ever realistically see any reason to go into somebody else's pocket so why bother standardising them? I would have left it as carry what you want in each pocket.

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Joe Hesketh(Offline)

Carrying on from the other thread about stowing the long hose after s-drills, now seen in context the change does seem to be just one example of increasing opportunities for building team awareness in a training scenario. That remains my only concern, i.e. that if you’re not going to carry this forward to real situations (and I still can’t see any need to, in fact the opposite), should you train for and continue to practice this skill any other way? Obviously I’m free to continue to practice s-drills (which I do) any way I like, but it makes even less sense to learn one way and then practice another?

I like the pockets idea too, though like Graham am struggling to think of an emergency scenario where I need to fish around in a buddy’s pockets. The reluctance does seem to be largely because it’s not what people are used to. For me, I’ve always put my SMB and spool in the left pocket, not because I’ve ever had a system for what “should” be left or right, I just simply have. Getting at it is not really an issue from what I’ve found. I agree with Gareth though, there are going to be a lot of people with DUI’s flat right hand pocket having copied the original WKPP spec. My first suit had this and it’s barely big enough to fit Wetnotes. Now for cave (which this setup was spec’d for - wreck it was always acknowledged that you might need bigger pockets on each side) the right pocket is going to have to have Wetnotes, spare mask and a 150ft safety spool, a physical impossibility with the neoprene pocket, whilst their cavernous cargo pocket will just have a couple of line arrows and markers (Cave 1) rattling around in it.

I’m still not convinced about the GUE EDGE thing. For one thing, from having ‘too many’ D’s to remember, I now foresee similar problems with the number of E’s in this one. I also rather liked SADDD for cave diving as all the D’s tended to be your limits for penetration and it made sense to me to review all these in the same breath (though I suppose you get there in the EDG bit too). I suppose my Cave 2 next April will be taught this way, so I’ll reserve judgement until then. Either way, I suspect this is one change that can only really be brought in either for the first time (at fundies) or via further training - the number of people forcing themselves to re-learn this off their own bat I suspect will be small.

In one of the earlier threads (before this became “official” ) someone raised the issue of how best this should be disseminated. Whilst the changes are posted on the website (and will inevitably make their way onto the forums), the website seems to indicate that “officially” the changes will be announced on Quest. I know that Quest is GUE’s baby, etc. but I don’t see that as necessarily being appropriate. Quest is neither exclusively DIR or for GUE trained people, in fact a large number of people appear to join to learn more precisely because they haven’t had any GUE training or other exposure to DIR. Secondly not all GUE trained divers see the internet or e-mail lists as an extension of their diving nor are GUE members (and, aside from the discounts on apparel and the warm fuzzy feeling at supporting what you believe in, to be honest the only real ‘benefit’ of membership is the Quest list). I still think an e-mail now and then from GUE HQ to their database of ex-students wouldn’t go amiss, and would be more inclusive of the people who any changes are likely to benefit.

Joe