And another - S drills

*Clare* · October 29th, 2006, 09:08 PM

When practicing the basic 5 GUE have recently been enouraging divers to pass the primary regulator to a buddy, rather than just holding it out in front of them, when deploying the long hose as part of a Mod S. This has now been extended to the S drill.

When the reciving diver has switched back to their own gas source at the end of the drill, they are now to retain the long hose whilst the donating diver first tucks it away under their light cannister and then reroutes the light cord. At this point the diver who received the gas can pass the hose back - and if they are helpful they may wish to make the shepherd's crook for the donator to place back around their neck prior to switching back to the regulator.

*Brian Allen* · October 29th, 2006, 10:22 PM

I like the Gideon Liew method on this one, as teaching the buddy to make the loop at a fundamentals level increases the complexity (very slightly). Also, personally I prefer to deal with my own hoses and routing etc.

So his suggested method was:

After the S-drill or skill 3 in basic 5. Buddy passes back the reg, diver then restores long hose under cannister, puts reg in right hand, makes the loop and puts over the back of the head then swaps regs. Then passes left hand with the light head underneath the primary hose, remove the light, withdraw hand, replace light. Finally set preferred tightness of primary and check hose/light cable routing.

Joe Hesketh · October 29th, 2006, 10:32 PM

It was all going so well. Just reading all the updates and thinking what good ideas they all were, and then this. Not sure I like it.

Might be less of an issue with the newer style wings (hose in front) or the newer style lights (dead easy to flick the hose under the can), but where you have to route the hose down behind the wing and under a large canister, like the Pro 14, you need to start with a longer section of hose to form an arc to hook behind wing and canister than might be afforded to you with your buddy holding onto the other end?

Also, you mostly don't end an s-drill facing your buddy - the donee will be out front and facing away when you cut it after doing the short swim/simulated exit. Or is he supposed to spin back around, then switch back to his own primary? What if you're doing the drill in a confined space or up against a wall or corner, etc. The donee might not be free to spin around stright away and unless he can see his buddy isn't he going to be less of a help than a hindrence holding onto that reg without knowing how much slack to afford the donor (who is probably also backing up to let the donee out). Isn't it just easier to break apart following the drill and both reposition yourselves back to where you can be face to face, donor stowing as he goes?

These might not prove to be issues, and I assume this has been tested in different environments with different kit. However, where's that leave the old classic riposte to the hose stuffers that you needed your buddy to help you put it away? I thought that being able to deal with your own hose was a benefit - one which the drill now no longer enables you to practice?

Joe

*bmutch* · October 29th, 2006, 11:16 PM

Hello from Canuckia Clare, Brian et al,

Isn't it at the end of the day about doing your cleanup, stowing your long hose and freeing your light cord?

It could likely be done 6 ways to Sunday as evident above.

Thanks for the invite to the board.

~B

*Clare* · October 29th, 2006, 11:18 PM

Hi Barry - my very favourite Canadian diver

See you at the conference my friend.

*JohnKendall* · October 29th, 2006, 11:19 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by bmutch)

Hello from Canuckia Clare, Brian et al,

Isn't it at the end of the day about doing your cleanup, stowing your long hose and freeing your light cord?

It could likely be done 6 ways to Sunday as evident above.

Thanks for the invite to the board.

~B

Dude,

Welcome to the board, Please tell me they got you back in devils for a bit more "flow Diving"

See ya
J

*Brian Allen* · October 29th, 2006, 11:19 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by bmutch)

Hello from Canuckia Clare, Brian et al,

Isn't it at the end of the day about doing your cleanup, stowing your long hose and freeing your light cord?

It could likely be done 6 ways to Sunday as evident above.

Thanks for the invite to the board.

~B

True, it's not really a biggy... it's all just personal preference

***throws grenade runs giggling***

*Clare* · October 29th, 2006, 11:21 PM

Quote:

True, it's not really a biggy... it's all just personal preference

***throws grenade runs giggling***

Hey - you hitting the beer too buddy?

I figure we deserve it!

Joe Hesketh · October 30th, 2006, 12:03 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly)

During S-drill practice there is always some frustration and wasted time caused by the divers occasionally failing to properly re-stow the long hose when the drill is over, sometimes causing problems later in the dive.

So the fact that some students new to the drill might c*ck it up is a good excuse to change the skill? EAN80 at 20ft anyone?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly)

Also it is important to encourage students to stay in front of their buddy while he/she stows everything after a drill, so that if there is a problem he is ready to donate gas if necessary.

During a valve drill OK, but here…? what problem exactly? The donor has a working reg in his mouth during the whole stowing process and then quickly switches to another one he’s holding which he knows for a fact is working because his buddy’s just been breathing it (unlike a switch to another bottle say, where the valve might not be turned on). I’m not saying that calling for vigilance can ever be a bad thing per se, and of course you should be ready to donate quickly at any time (that’s the whole point of the long hose) but I don’t see this as being in the same risk category as a valve drill or stage switch.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly)

I can see how this training procedure will aid in helping the divers keep their hoses properly routed, while increasing safety and team awareness.

Perhaps, although you should be (and should be encouraged to be) picking up stuff like this (e.g. hose not properly behind the wing, light cord trapped, etc.) whilst watching your buddy as a matter of course whether you’ve got hold of his second stage or not.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly)

Of course the instructor's main focus with the S-drill is training the divers to efficiently cope with real-life gas emergencies.

Point taken, and as already mentioned this is not the real focus of the drill. But I’m still uneasy about having a standard for clean up that implies that it takes two of you to stow the hose, which although not true, actively de-encourages familiarity in managing the whole hose by yourself.

So, however minor, I’m still don’t understand the point of the change. Is it to make things easier (not necessarily a always good thing), or more efficient (it might be, but at the expense of individual skill?), or safer (not an issue in the confines of the drill) or more realistic (not sure that’s true)?

Joe

**Alastair** · November 2nd, 2006, 12:43 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe Hesketh)

So, however minor, I’m still don’t understand the point of the change. Is it to make things easier (not necessarily a always good thing), or more efficient (it might be, but at the expense of individual skill?), or safer (not an issue in the confines of the drill) or more realistic (not sure that’s true)?

Joe

Have to agree with Joe on this. If someone qualified has had an issue with this that has resulted in a genuine problem on the dive then lets hear the reason for the change.

If this is being changed to cope with a lack of skill from new divers on a fundies class then what's that about? I thought the whole point was we had a system that was the essentially the same for all no matter what level of diver. Is the idea now to dumb down to the lowest common denominator?

Al

October 29th, 2006, 09:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
Clare (Online) GUE Instructor Site Admin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,839	When practicing the basic 5 GUE have recently been enouraging divers to pass the primary regulator to a buddy, rather than just holding it out in front of them, when deploying the long hose as part of a Mod S. This has now been extended to the S drill. When the reciving diver has switched back to their own gas source at the end of the drill, they are now to retain the long hose whilst the donating diver first tucks it away under their light cannister and then reroutes the light cord. At this point the diver who received the gas can pass the hose back - and if they are helpful they may wish to make the shepherd's crook for the donator to place back around their neck prior to switching back to the regulator. __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk

October 29th, 2006, 10:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
Brian Allen(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London & Plymouth Posts: 623	I like the Gideon Liew method on this one, as teaching the buddy to make the loop at a fundamentals level increases the complexity (very slightly). Also, personally I prefer to deal with my own hoses and routing etc. So his suggested method was: After the S-drill or skill 3 in basic 5. Buddy passes back the reg, diver then restores long hose under cannister, puts reg in right hand, makes the loop and puts over the back of the head then swaps regs. Then passes left hand with the light head underneath the primary hose, remove the light, withdraw hand, replace light. Finally set preferred tightness of primary and check hose/light cable routing. __________________ ...dive planning again ... http://www.justgiving.com/Brian-Allen GUE fundamentals and Halcyon Equipment Online www.ocean-explorers.co.uk Last edited by Brian Allen; October 29th, 2006 at 10:27 PM..

October 29th, 2006, 11:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
Clare (Online) GUE Instructor Site Admin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,839	Hi Barry - my very favourite Canadian diver See you at the conference my friend. __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk

October 29th, 2006, 11:19 PM	#6 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,446	Quote: (Originally Posted by bmutch) Hello from Canuckia Clare, Brian et al, Isn't it at the end of the day about doing your cleanup, stowing your long hose and freeing your light cord? It could likely be done 6 ways to Sunday as evident above. Thanks for the invite to the board. ~B Dude, Welcome to the board, Please tell me they got you back in devils for a bit more "flow Diving" See ya J __________________ John Kendall http://www.amphibian-productions.com/diving GUE Instruction, Santi, Zeuxo and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Shop

October 29th, 2006, 11:19 PM	#7 (permalink)
Brian Allen(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London & Plymouth Posts: 623	Quote: (Originally Posted by bmutch) Hello from Canuckia Clare, Brian et al, Isn't it at the end of the day about doing your cleanup, stowing your long hose and freeing your light cord? It could likely be done 6 ways to Sunday as evident above. Thanks for the invite to the board. ~B True, it's not really a biggy... it's all just personal preference *throws grenade runs giggling* __________________ ...dive planning again ... http://www.justgiving.com/Brian-Allen GUE fundamentals and Halcyon Equipment Online www.ocean-explorers.co.uk

October 29th, 2006, 10:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
Joe Hesketh(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 688	It was all going so well. Just reading all the updates and thinking what good ideas they all were, and then this. Not sure I like it. Might be less of an issue with the newer style wings (hose in front) or the newer style lights (dead easy to flick the hose under the can), but where you have to route the hose down behind the wing and under a large canister, like the Pro 14, you need to start with a longer section of hose to form an arc to hook behind wing and canister than might be afforded to you with your buddy holding onto the other end? Also, you mostly don't end an s-drill facing your buddy - the donee will be out front and facing away when you cut it after doing the short swim/simulated exit. Or is he supposed to spin back around, then switch back to his own primary? What if you're doing the drill in a confined space or up against a wall or corner, etc. The donee might not be free to spin around stright away and unless he can see his buddy isn't he going to be less of a help than a hindrence holding onto that reg without knowing how much slack to afford the donor (who is probably also backing up to let the donee out). Isn't it just easier to break apart following the drill and both reposition yourselves back to where you can be face to face, donor stowing as he goes? These might not prove to be issues, and I assume this has been tested in different environments with different kit. However, where's that leave the old classic riposte to the hose stuffers that you needed your buddy to help you put it away? I thought that being able to deal with your own hose was a benefit - one which the drill now no longer enables you to practice? Joe

October 29th, 2006, 11:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
bmutch(Offline) Canuckian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mexico Posts: 7	Hello from Canuckia Clare, Brian et al, Isn't it at the end of the day about doing your cleanup, stowing your long hose and freeing your light cord? It could likely be done 6 ways to Sunday as evident above. Thanks for the invite to the board. ~B

October 29th, 2006, 11:21 PM	#8 (permalink)
Clare (Online) GUE Instructor Site Admin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,839	Quote: True, it's not really a biggy... it's all just personal preference *throws grenade runs giggling* Hey - you hitting the beer too buddy? I figure we deserve it! __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk

October 30th, 2006, 12:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
Joe Hesketh(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 688	Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly) During S-drill practice there is always some frustration and wasted time caused by the divers occasionally failing to properly re-stow the long hose when the drill is over, sometimes causing problems later in the dive. So the fact that some students new to the drill might cck it up is a good excuse to change the skill? EAN80 at 20ft anyone? Quote:* (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly) Also it is important to encourage students to stay in front of their buddy while he/she stows everything after a drill, so that if there is a problem he is ready to donate gas if necessary. During a valve drill OK, but here…? what problem exactly? The donor has a working reg in his mouth during the whole stowing process and then quickly switches to another one he’s holding which he knows for a fact is working because his buddy’s just been breathing it (unlike a switch to another bottle say, where the valve might not be turned on). I’m not saying that calling for vigilance can ever be a bad thing per se, and of course you should be ready to donate quickly at any time (that’s the whole point of the long hose) but I don’t see this as being in the same risk category as a valve drill or stage switch. Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly) I can see how this training procedure will aid in helping the divers keep their hoses properly routed, while increasing safety and team awareness. Perhaps, although you should be (and should be encouraged to be) picking up stuff like this (e.g. hose not properly behind the wing, light cord trapped, etc.) whilst watching your buddy as a matter of course whether you’ve got hold of his second stage or not. Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly) Of course the instructor's main focus with the S-drill is training the divers to efficiently cope with real-life gas emergencies. Point taken, and as already mentioned this is not the real focus of the drill. But I’m still uneasy about having a standard for clean up that implies that it takes two of you to stow the hose, which although not true, actively de-encourages familiarity in managing the whole hose by yourself. So, however minor, I’m still don’t understand the point of the change. Is it to make things easier (not necessarily a always good thing), or more efficient (it might be, but at the expense of individual skill?), or safer (not an issue in the confines of the drill) or more realistic (not sure that’s true)? Joe Last edited by Joe Hesketh; November 2nd, 2006 at 06:19 PM.. Reason: typo

November 2nd, 2006, 12:43 AM	#10 (permalink)
Alastair(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 752	Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe Hesketh) So, however minor, I’m still don’t understand the point of the change. Is it to make things easier (not necessarily a always good thing), or more efficient (it might be, but at the expense of individual skill?), or safer (not an issue in the confines of the drill) or more realistic (not sure that’s true)? Joe Have to agree with Joe on this. If someone qualified has had an issue with this that has resulted in a genuine problem on the dive then lets hear the reason for the change. If this is being changed to cope with a lack of skill from new divers on a fundies class then what's that about? I thought the whole point was we had a system that was the essentially the same for all no matter what level of diver. Is the idea now to dumb down to the lowest common denominator? Al __________________ Helium is our friend - GI3