Value of GUE C-card renewal

Roel · June 29th, 2006, 12:57 PM

List,

When I started with my Fundamentals course I understood that every 3 years you have to do 25+ dives at your highest certification level to keep you card (and certification) valid. Coming from organisations with 'life time certification' this sounded great to me, finally an organisation that takes care of the long term value for its certification!

No I understand that after (almost) 3 years you only have to provide a copy of your logbook (and c-card) indicating these 25+ dives which takes care of you 're-qualification'. And do not forget the $30,- for the new card and administration costs. To me it feels like you can make up any list of 25+ dives and keep your card without any link to the quality of your diving.

My feeling now has strongly changed from 'quality control' to 'administration and up to date customer information'. This is no comment about the quality of my diving instructors, I consider them still to be much better than all the ones I had before at other organisations.

The only real quality control I can think of is a check out dive every ?? years with one of the instructors, but that could be very difficult for many people because of the long distance. The current system has no quality value in my opinion anymore.

Please help me out, am I mistaken or do I have the wrong information?

Kind regards,

Roel

*Rich Walker* · June 29th, 2006, 02:54 PM

Roel,

The system you describe is correct.

However, I cannot see a workable method of ensuring that these dives are valid. Any system you devise can be cheated. If it were a checkout dive with an instructor, that would be extremely time consuming for the instructor and expensive for the student. Imagine if I had to check out what would amount to 1/3rd of the divers I had ever certified every year - Pretty soon I'd be doing these checkouts on a permanent basis.

The honesty system has it's flaws of course, but it is still considerably in advance of the rest of the diving industry.

At the end of the day, if you fake the dives, you only cheat yourself. Your buddies will soon find you out.

Rich

**neilh** · June 29th, 2006, 02:57 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Roel)

you only have to provide a copy of your logbook (and c-card)

...I hope they return them faster than they send them out at the moment

Roel · June 29th, 2006, 03:20 PM

The system you describe is correct.

However, I cannot see a workable method of ensuring that these dives are valid. Any system you devise can be cheated. If it were a checkout dive with an instructor, that would be extremely time consuming for the instructor and expensive for the student. Imagine if I had to check out what would amount to 1/3rd of the divers I had ever certified every year - Pretty soon I'd be doing these checkouts on a permanent basis.

The honesty system has it's flaws of course, but it is still considerably in advance of the rest of the diving industry.

At the end of the day, if you fake the dives, you only cheat yourself. Your buddies will soon find you out.

Rich[/quote]

Rich,

What you say is right. Check out dives are the only system I can think of that has real value,but it is not practicle like you clearly explain.

I evaluate my buddies by their diving, not by their cards. I still not see a value of the current system. Any GUE card has been earned as far as I can see, but it's value after a few years (or sooner) is still not secured in my opinion.

So I still see it as administration in stead of added value,
but I might be to negative.

Best regards,

Roel

krautrob · June 29th, 2006, 04:15 PM

So what is the advantage of having the certification agency have a look at a copy of your logbook over having your buddies have a look at your logbook before they dive with you? Anybody, who would check your c-card could has well have a look at your logbook to make sure you have some recent experience.

davy · June 29th, 2006, 04:27 PM

That is if you keep a logbook...

damn, I better start writing this stuff down again somewhere...

DRE · June 29th, 2006, 04:46 PM

Let's call a spade a spade here: the only reason for having to renew the C-card is so GUE can cash your $30 every so often. While other training agencies do not have renewing certs and cannot withdraw a cert after you obtained (this - again IMO - is the only good thing about GUE's stance on certs: if someone does something incredibly stupid the agency can act upon it; BTW, other agencies have this with regards to instructor ratings), any self-respecting instructor will be able to assess immediately whether a student is up to snuff or not; is someone wants to take an Adv class, claims they have 300 dives under their belt but they cannot remember how to assemble their gear, you know there's a problem!
I personally don't like to have Big Brother watching over me...

PS: no system is perfect and as with so many things in life, personal responsibility is a becoming a lost art.

GoDiva · June 29th, 2006, 07:18 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Roel)

No I understand that after (almost) 3 years you only have to provide a copy of your logbook (and c-card) indicating these 25+ dives which takes care of you 're-qualification'. And do not forget the $30,- for the new card and administration costs. To me it feels like you can make up any list of 25+ dives and keep your card without any link to the quality of your diving.

My feeling now has strongly changed from 'quality control' to 'administration and up to date customer information'. This is no comment about the quality of my diving instructors, I consider them still to be much better than all the ones I had before at other organisations.

Well, the solution is to just take a new course every 2 to 2.5 years... That way you do not have to pay the "renewal fee", you still have a valid card AND you get to do a check out dive with an instructor while learning a lot of new things and being updated at the same time...

BTW: what is higher: a tech 1 or a cave 1? (or do you need 50 dives to renew both cards?)

Digger · June 29th, 2006, 07:47 PM

I wasn't even aware you had to do this with GUE. Open to abuse, open to lose certs and logbooks (some of the info in my old logbooks just can't be replaced, and what's to stop me making up a load of guff? Divers do, I've seen dive BS in logbooks on several occasions)

Sounds like a neat money-maker.

As GUE qualified divers if I did fundies and tech 1, you as a team knew I'd done more than 25 dives a year, would you still dive with me?

Could you still buy gas? Of course you could.

So what's the point? If I don't send it back am I then back to fundies if I wanted to go and do tech 2?

I could understand it from a QC perspective, but seriously, a logbook is no record of quality. We've all survived dives putting in a crap performance that wouldn't even get you through fundies. Where's the control in seeing a logbook with "great job, great dive, nice wreck/cave" and "50m for 20 mins, deco x and y, buddy ...."

Do GUE trained divers actually do this? I'd tell them to stick it, but then that's my way.

I'm not here to piss in through the windows as far as DIR is concerned, but this seems like madness.

Digs.

*Rich Walker* · June 29th, 2006, 08:09 PM

Good grief, the bile that comes out of some people about a positive move within the industry.

A diver not conducting 25 dives at the highest level of their experience is a diver that is not "dived up" in any sense of the word.

GUE is not trying to control anyone, and isn't trying to make an extra buck. As far as I know, there's no charge for re-validating the card.

In my opinion, it serves as a reality check for the diver when they review their last three years diving - if they're not conducting dives at the level they were when the obtained the cert. then it should cause them to think "am I really ready to do the tech 2 dive wor which I've just been offered a space on the boat".

It also would allow a dive centre to check how current a diver was, although the knowledge that GUE certs expire would need to be in place in a wider sense.

As far as buying gas goes, it would again depend on the shop. If they were au fait with the GUE procedures, then they wouldn't/shouldn't sell the gas to an uncertified GUE diver.

No, you don't have to go back to square 1 if you miss your 25 dives. There's a mechanism for "expired cards" as well.

Rich

June 29th, 2006, 12:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
Roel(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Netherlands Posts: 374	Value of GUE C-card renewal List, When I started with my Fundamentals course I understood that every 3 years you have to do 25+ dives at your highest certification level to keep you card (and certification) valid. Coming from organisations with 'life time certification' this sounded great to me, finally an organisation that takes care of the long term value for its certification! No I understand that after (almost) 3 years you only have to provide a copy of your logbook (and c-card) indicating these 25+ dives which takes care of you 're-qualification'. And do not forget the $30,- for the new card and administration costs. To me it feels like you can make up any list of 25+ dives and keep your card without any link to the quality of your diving. My feeling now has strongly changed from 'quality control' to 'administration and up to date customer information'. This is no comment about the quality of my diving instructors, I consider them still to be much better than all the ones I had before at other organisations. The only real quality control I can think of is a check out dive every ?? years with one of the instructors, but that could be very difficult for many people because of the long distance. The current system has no quality value in my opinion anymore. Please help me out, am I mistaken or do I have the wrong information? Kind regards, Roel

June 29th, 2006, 02:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rich Walker(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sheffield Posts: 300	Roel, The system you describe is correct. However, I cannot see a workable method of ensuring that these dives are valid. Any system you devise can be cheated. If it were a checkout dive with an instructor, that would be extremely time consuming for the instructor and expensive for the student. Imagine if I had to check out what would amount to 1/3rd of the divers I had ever certified every year - Pretty soon I'd be doing these checkouts on a permanent basis. The honesty system has it's flaws of course, but it is still considerably in advance of the rest of the diving industry. At the end of the day, if you fake the dives, you only cheat yourself. Your buddies will soon find you out. Rich __________________ Education, Equipment, Experience GUE training with Rich Walker

June 29th, 2006, 07:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
GoDiva (Online) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 547	Quote: (Originally Posted by Roel) No I understand that after (almost) 3 years you only have to provide a copy of your logbook (and c-card) indicating these 25+ dives which takes care of you 're-qualification'. And do not forget the $30,- for the new card and administration costs. To me it feels like you can make up any list of 25+ dives and keep your card without any link to the quality of your diving. My feeling now has strongly changed from 'quality control' to 'administration and up to date customer information'. This is no comment about the quality of my diving instructors, I consider them still to be much better than all the ones I had before at other organisations. Well, the solution is to just take a new course every 2 to 2.5 years... That way you do not have to pay the "renewal fee", you still have a valid card AND you get to do a check out dive with an instructor while learning a lot of new things and being updated at the same time... BTW: what is higher: a tech 1 or a cave 1? (or do you need 50 dives to renew both cards?) __________________ "Miss Dodgy-Pockets" or "Miss Lime-Green, Clear-Skirt Mask"

June 29th, 2006, 08:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
Rich Walker(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sheffield Posts: 300	Good grief, the bile that comes out of some people about a positive move within the industry. A diver not conducting 25 dives at the highest level of their experience is a diver that is not "dived up" in any sense of the word. GUE is not trying to control anyone, and isn't trying to make an extra buck. As far as I know, there's no charge for re-validating the card. In my opinion, it serves as a reality check for the diver when they review their last three years diving - if they're not conducting dives at the level they were when the obtained the cert. then it should cause them to think "am I really ready to do the tech 2 dive wor which I've just been offered a space on the boat". It also would allow a dive centre to check how current a diver was, although the knowledge that GUE certs expire would need to be in place in a wider sense. As far as buying gas goes, it would again depend on the shop. If they were au fait with the GUE procedures, then they wouldn't/shouldn't sell the gas to an uncertified GUE diver. No, you don't have to go back to square 1 if you miss your 25 dives. There's a mechanism for "expired cards" as well. Rich __________________ Education, Equipment, Experience GUE training with Rich Walker

June 29th, 2006, 02:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
neilh(Offline) Haemoglobin on the bus... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Barnsley, UK Posts: 1,900	Quote: (Originally Posted by Roel) you only have to provide a copy of your logbook (and c-card) ...I hope they return them faster than they send them out at the moment

June 29th, 2006, 03:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
Roel(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Netherlands Posts: 374	The system you describe is correct. However, I cannot see a workable method of ensuring that these dives are valid. Any system you devise can be cheated. If it were a checkout dive with an instructor, that would be extremely time consuming for the instructor and expensive for the student. Imagine if I had to check out what would amount to 1/3rd of the divers I had ever certified every year - Pretty soon I'd be doing these checkouts on a permanent basis. The honesty system has it's flaws of course, but it is still considerably in advance of the rest of the diving industry. At the end of the day, if you fake the dives, you only cheat yourself. Your buddies will soon find you out. Rich[/quote] Rich, What you say is right. Check out dives are the only system I can think of that has real value,but it is not practicle like you clearly explain. I evaluate my buddies by their diving, not by their cards. I still not see a value of the current system. Any GUE card has been earned as far as I can see, but it's value after a few years (or sooner) is still not secured in my opinion. So I still see it as administration in stead of added value, but I might be to negative. Best regards, Roel

June 29th, 2006, 04:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
krautrob (Online) New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berlin/Munich Posts: 60	So what is the advantage of having the certification agency have a look at a copy of your logbook over having your buddies have a look at your logbook before they dive with you? Anybody, who would check your c-card could has well have a look at your logbook to make sure you have some recent experience.

June 29th, 2006, 04:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
davy(Offline) DIveR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 275	That is if you keep a logbook... damn, I better start writing this stuff down again somewhere...

June 29th, 2006, 04:46 PM	#7 (permalink)
DRE(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Mineola, NY Posts: 162	Let's call a spade a spade here: the only reason for having to renew the C-card is so GUE can cash your $30 every so often. While other training agencies do not have renewing certs and cannot withdraw a cert after you obtained (this - again IMO - is the only good thing about GUE's stance on certs: if someone does something incredibly stupid the agency can act upon it; BTW, other agencies have this with regards to instructor ratings), any self-respecting instructor will be able to assess immediately whether a student is up to snuff or not; is someone wants to take an Adv class, claims they have 300 dives under their belt but they cannot remember how to assemble their gear, you know there's a problem! I personally don't like to have Big Brother watching over me... PS: no system is perfect and as with so many things in life, personal responsibility is a becoming a lost art.

June 29th, 2006, 07:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
Digger(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Midlands Posts: 122	I wasn't even aware you had to do this with GUE. Open to abuse, open to lose certs and logbooks (some of the info in my old logbooks just can't be replaced, and what's to stop me making up a load of guff? Divers do, I've seen dive BS in logbooks on several occasions) Sounds like a neat money-maker. As GUE qualified divers if I did fundies and tech 1, you as a team knew I'd done more than 25 dives a year, would you still dive with me? Could you still buy gas? Of course you could. So what's the point? If I don't send it back am I then back to fundies if I wanted to go and do tech 2? I could understand it from a QC perspective, but seriously, a logbook is no record of quality. We've all survived dives putting in a crap performance that wouldn't even get you through fundies. Where's the control in seeing a logbook with "great job, great dive, nice wreck/cave" and "50m for 20 mins, deco x and y, buddy ...." Do GUE trained divers actually do this? I'd tell them to stick it, but then that's my way. I'm not here to piss in through the windows as far as DIR is concerned, but this seems like madness. Digs.