Team Contact in Light Green or Blue Water

GLOC · May 19th, 2006, 10:45 PM

Last week we did a dive on the Countess in pretty good vis (10-15m) and the sun was out which also meant that it was very light in the open parts of the wrecks.

This then lead to a situation where you could swim slightly further away than normal because you could see the rest of the team but it also meant that the lights were next to useless for signalling. I believe that this can also be an issue with blue water too. The added complication was that because the bottom was very silty you wanted to have some room to manouevre rather than being right on top of the guy infront.

In the event of an OOA it would have been a breath hold swim, which all of the team would be happy doing but signalling was nigh on impossible, as #3 I would have been in the worst position.

What is the GUE procedure for this sort of scenario?

Divingniknaks · May 19th, 2006, 10:58 PM

3 abreast ? Instead of inline ?

Would that not help ?

Or should I retire to under my rock.

GLOC · May 19th, 2006, 11:03 PM

Sounds like a sort of plan and I suppose it would work in open water across a reef, but the problem we had was that the wreck doesn't really lend itself to that. Have a look here to see where we were diving.

***ericfine50*** · May 19th, 2006, 11:13 PM

if you have to stay single file - then I would suggest staying close enough to each other that if an OOA would occure, you could reach a buddy quickly.

wilbo · May 19th, 2006, 11:27 PM

I was there. At number 1 - I would probably not have seen that Gareth - at number 3 would have had a problem or that Rob at #2 was helping him.

the conditions - the width of the wreck (single file was the only real formation), the silt on it and the ambient light would have all been factors. Light signalling would have been - and was (in the open sections) next to useless.

watching with interest.

Still - as the coast is blown out with force 6 gales tomorrow, we should at least get the chance to use the lights in our local puddle - www.vobsterquay.co.uk - tomorrow..

***ericfine50*** · May 19th, 2006, 11:28 PM

If you can't signal with a light, then touch contact is your fall back, I guess...

wilbo · May 19th, 2006, 11:32 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by ericfine50)

If you can't signal with a light, then touch contact is your fall back, I guess...

Eric,

not so sure that the conditions merited touch contact really.. the vis was quite good at 15 metres. the wreck was narrow and the overhead was maybe 3 or 4 feet in sections. some overhards were covered - so lights worked well.

it just seemed that the conditions were great - the communication just let us down. Touch contact just doesn't seem right.. if you see what I am trying to convey..

sasdasdaf · May 19th, 2006, 11:33 PM

Yeah, if light signals don't work, you have to stay close enough in order to get to the next teammate with gas on a breath hold. This is not that hard to do unless you are a huge distance away. In our Cave 2 class, there were episodes where someone would be lightless and OOG at the same time. Since the group is usually not hauling ass, it is not a big deal to do an extra 2-3 kicks to reach the person in front of you.

Also, in real life, a catastrophic OOG is uncommon. Usually there will be other problems first.

LCF · May 20th, 2006, 02:23 AM

I've run into this problem in the tropics, where even a 21W HID is pretty useless for signalling. Plus, people diving in those conditions seem to think it's okay to allow much greater separation "because we can see each other". I have argued in vain that those conditions might even warrant a little CLOSER formation, and more vigilant awareness, simply because you can't signal very easily to let your teammates know of any problem. It doesn't have to be OOA -- there are plenty of other problems (entanglement, freeflows, other equipment malfunctions requiring a teammate's assistance).

GLOC · May 20th, 2006, 08:14 AM

I suppose it is down to practice then. #1 realising that the light signals are not going to work, so slows the team down to less than you would normally progress at, and the rest of the team be prepared to swim closer than you would normally do. I also agree it isn't necessarily an OOG that could warrant a signal back and down the line. Touch contact isn't something that we have done as a team very much.

Swimming closer together when the vis is good and it is light is quite unintuitive as LCF points out, the better the vis, the further apart you think you can be. Need to work on that.

Thanks for the replies, I am sure there will be more.

May 19th, 2006, 10:45 PM	#1 (permalink)
GLOC (Online) Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Fleet, Hants Posts: 1,963	Team Contact in Light Green or Blue Water Last week we did a dive on the Countess in pretty good vis (10-15m) and the sun was out which also meant that it was very light in the open parts of the wrecks. This then lead to a situation where you could swim slightly further away than normal because you could see the rest of the team but it also meant that the lights were next to useless for signalling. I believe that this can also be an issue with blue water too. The added complication was that because the bottom was very silty you wanted to have some room to manouevre rather than being right on top of the guy infront. In the event of an OOA it would have been a breath hold swim, which all of the team would be happy doing but signalling was nigh on impossible, as #3 I would have been in the worst position. What is the GUE procedure for this sort of scenario? __________________ Gareth Images of Life Photography DIR Team Foxturd Travels Underwater and Further Afar If you don't have the time to do something right, where are you going to find the time to fix it? - Stephen King

May 19th, 2006, 10:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
Divingniknaks(Offline) Resident purveyor of shiney kit.... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midlands UK Posts: 1,038	3 abreast ? Instead of inline ? Would that not help ? Or should I retire to under my rock. __________________ Phill ----------------------------- Salvo Lights, DirZone Gear , Frog Wings Dive ? http://www.divingniknaks.com

May 19th, 2006, 11:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
GLOC (Online) Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Fleet, Hants Posts: 1,963	Sounds like a sort of plan and I suppose it would work in open water across a reef, but the problem we had was that the wreck doesn't really lend itself to that. Have a look here to see where we were diving. __________________ Gareth Images of Life Photography DIR Team Foxturd Travels Underwater and Further Afar If you don't have the time to do something right, where are you going to find the time to fix it? - Stephen King

May 19th, 2006, 11:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
wilbo(Offline) Chimp 4 Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Swindon, UK Posts: 873	I was there. At number 1 - I would probably not have seen that Gareth - at number 3 would have had a problem or that Rob at #2 was helping him. the conditions - the width of the wreck (single file was the only real formation), the silt on it and the ambient light would have all been factors. Light signalling would have been - and was (in the open sections) next to useless. watching with interest. Still - as the coast is blown out with force 6 gales tomorrow, we should at least get the chance to use the lights in our local puddle - www.vobsterquay.co.uk - tomorrow.. __________________ Cheers! Wilbo DIR explorers: DIR Yorkshire Divers: YorkshireDivers One of the Foxturd chimps

May 19th, 2006, 11:32 PM	#7 (permalink)
wilbo(Offline) Chimp 4 Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Swindon, UK Posts: 873	Quote: (Originally Posted by ericfine50) If you can't signal with a light, then touch contact is your fall back, I guess... Eric, not so sure that the conditions merited touch contact really.. the vis was quite good at 15 metres. the wreck was narrow and the overhead was maybe 3 or 4 feet in sections. some overhards were covered - so lights worked well. it just seemed that the conditions were great - the communication just let us down. Touch contact just doesn't seem right.. if you see what I am trying to convey.. __________________ Cheers! Wilbo DIR explorers: DIR Yorkshire Divers: YorkshireDivers One of the Foxturd chimps

May 19th, 2006, 11:13 PM	#4 (permalink)
*ericfine50*(Offline) Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: MA Posts: 622	if you have to stay single file - then I would suggest staying close enough to each other that if an OOA would occure, you could reach a buddy quickly.

May 19th, 2006, 11:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
*ericfine50*(Offline) Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: MA Posts: 622	If you can't signal with a light, then touch contact is your fall back, I guess...

May 19th, 2006, 11:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
sasdasdaf(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 375	Yeah, if light signals don't work, you have to stay close enough in order to get to the next teammate with gas on a breath hold. This is not that hard to do unless you are a huge distance away. In our Cave 2 class, there were episodes where someone would be lightless and OOG at the same time. Since the group is usually not hauling ass, it is not a big deal to do an extra 2-3 kicks to reach the person in front of you. Also, in real life, a catastrophic OOG is uncommon. Usually there will be other problems first.

May 20th, 2006, 02:23 AM	#9 (permalink)
LCF(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 623	I've run into this problem in the tropics, where even a 21W HID is pretty useless for signalling. Plus, people diving in those conditions seem to think it's okay to allow much greater separation "because we can see each other". I have argued in vain that those conditions might even warrant a little CLOSER formation, and more vigilant awareness, simply because you can't signal very easily to let your teammates know of any problem. It doesn't have to be OOA -- there are plenty of other problems (entanglement, freeflows, other equipment malfunctions requiring a teammate's assistance).

May 20th, 2006, 08:14 AM	#10 (permalink)
GLOC (Online) Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Fleet, Hants Posts: 1,963	I suppose it is down to practice then. #1 realising that the light signals are not going to work, so slows the team down to less than you would normally progress at, and the rest of the team be prepared to swim closer than you would normally do. I also agree it isn't necessarily an OOG that could warrant a signal back and down the line. Touch contact isn't something that we have done as a team very much. Swimming closer together when the vis is good and it is light is quite unintuitive as LCF points out, the better the vis, the further apart you think you can be. Need to work on that. Thanks for the replies, I am sure there will be more. __________________ Gareth Images of Life Photography DIR Team Foxturd Travels Underwater and Further Afar If you don't have the time to do something right, where are you going to find the time to fix it? - Stephen King