PADI DIR speciality

Red Sea Explorer · January 17th, 2006, 01:47 PM

At the risk of being chewed a new one I am going to open this one for discussion.

Have any of you DIR trained PADI instructors thought of, or asked PADI if it would be possible to get approval for a DIR specialty.

It could be labeled a skill improvement specialty or something.

What are some of your thoughts on this?

Do you think it is would be a positive move for the dive industry?

Do you think there is a market for it?

Do you think this would be a blasphemous move that goes against the ethos of DIR? Or is it a good move in that it is another channel that can be used to propagate better diving skills?

Your thoughts……

graham_hk · January 17th, 2006, 02:01 PM

No where in the standards does it say that snorkel must be worn on the mask or that divers must be overweighted kneeling on the bottom. I see no barriers to teaching divers in a DIR style under the PADI system (I make a modest attempt at this myself).

I don't, therefore, see the need for a speciality - since it will only be taught by DIR minded instructors who should have taught there divers properly in the first place :D

Graham

**jb2cool** · January 17th, 2006, 02:06 PM

Why bother?
What will a PADI speciality add that GUE's DIR-F does not?

It might get some divers to brush up on their skills but those that would be interested would probably be looking at other agencies anyway. As already mentioned, PADI instructors that have an interest in DIR will probably teach to this anyway.

ppo2_diver · January 17th, 2006, 02:17 PM

I knew an instructor who wanted to do this. In this specific case, the person was not DIR trained and had just read JJ's book. He wasn't well versed in DIR to really offer high quality DIR training.

I only think this would be a good idea if the instructor was a GUE instructor as well. Otherwise it would lessen the perception of DIR. I say GUE as they are the ones really driving what is DIR currently.

The problem is that this may be perceived as low quality as many people don't have high expectations for PADI course. The instructor would have to ensure that the PADI distinctive specialty is taught with the very high standards as GUE.

Red Sea Explorer · January 17th, 2006, 02:19 PM

If you look at it from the perspective of a dive operator who would like to offer something to interested divers that are visiting for a week or a few days.

Getting a GUE instructor is still difficult in some areas of the world and would be expensive. This might be a good way to be able to have a structure and be able to issue a C-card for the C-card loving public.

It could make sense. No?

Rick · January 17th, 2006, 02:24 PM

Calling Chardy!!

**jb2cool** · January 17th, 2006, 02:26 PM

I don't think so.

You'd end up with a cut-down simplified version of DIR-F and it'd be worth very little.

*Rich Walker* · January 17th, 2006, 02:28 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Red Sea Explorer)

If you look at it from the perspective of a dive operator who would like to offer something to interested divers that are visiting for a week or a few days.

Getting a GUE instructor is still difficult in some areas of the world and would be expensive. This might be a good way to be able to have a structure and be able to issue a C-card for the C-card loving public.

It could make sense. No?

Well, could the "graduating student" from this speciality seriously call themselves a DIR diver?

Rich

**Howard Payne** · January 17th, 2006, 02:38 PM

I seriously think that the best way to promote GUE to non GUE divers is to say - come and give it a go, we're not saying we're doing it right and you're doing it wrong - but you may find the system has some ideas, tips or methods that you may wish to adopt in your own every day diving. If people then choose to take what they like away from the experience and incorporate it into their own diving under the auspices of another agency - then fine. They'll be safer, enjoy their diving more and be more relaxed in the water - no problem.

I think a large proportion of divers who try it and see the whole system and how well it works and the quality of diver it produces will simply want to adopt it in its entirety, as I have done.

I am regularly assisting with PADI courses, teaching OW students and even with my limited knowledge of DIR as a newbie - it is very hard not to incorporate some of the things you learn into teaching the PADI way. Many of the ideas are not incompatible. Trim and buoyancy, fin str*kes, ascent rates to the surface after a PADI 3min at 5m stop. I see no incompatibility.

The great secret trick of this whole benign approach is, as everyone has found at one stage or another, it's very hard just to take bits of GUE and use it with something else. All of the elements of the system are so inter-dependent on each other that its hard to take one bit without taking it all.

Another vote for hating snorkels. With my DM hat on, if I've got a bunch of divers in the water waiting to get back on a boat I'd far rather they all had regs in their mouths. 50 bar lasts forever at the surface and if they sink for whatever crazy reason - they're still breathing. Students constantly complain about having a snorkel banging around on the side of their head and the clips chew into mask straps with all the constant adjustment. A mask strap breaking under water on a novice diver really is potential problem. Less really is more.

Mark Chase · January 17th, 2006, 02:53 PM

First its not possible to do a PADI OW course in a DIR stile. The training would ber invalid as it breaches standards for PADI.

1: Long hose is fine but the location of the hose is unacceptable

2: Deploying the OOA reg from the mouth is not PADI So the long hose would need to be stowed differently and the reg hung in the chest triangle

3: PADI OW doesn't cover Nitrox so you would be on a non DIR tyre gas.

4: PADI teach the RDP and residual nitrogen calculations which dont follow DIR standards

I am sure i could think of several more.

So you cant run a PADI OW course in a DIR stile. However Apart from the use of the long hose and Nitrox for all diving to 30m I see no reason why a PADI OW course can not be carried out to the same standards as a DIR course.

PADI OW includes trim and buoyancy, mask off drills controlled ascents OOA drills, gas planning etc.

HOWEVER..... An extract from the PADI OW manual

If a suggested technique for meeting a performance requirement doesn't work because of your personal situation, ask your instructor to help you attain your goal to become a divers by adapting or developing techniques that meet the requirements some other way. You need to meet the performance requirements to receive a PADI certification, but there are many ways besides those listed in this manual.

How refreshing :D

So what in what specific areas does the PADI OW course lack content? Or are you saying that the standard of instructors is poor?

ATB

Mark Chase

January 17th, 2006, 01:47 PM	#1 (permalink)
Red Sea Explorer(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Red Sea Posts: 236	PADI DIR speciality At the risk of being chewed a new one I am going to open this one for discussion. Have any of you DIR trained PADI instructors thought of, or asked PADI if it would be possible to get approval for a DIR specialty. It could be labeled a skill improvement specialty or something. What are some of your thoughts on this? Do you think it is would be a positive move for the dive industry? Do you think there is a market for it? Do you think this would be a blasphemous move that goes against the ethos of DIR? Or is it a good move in that it is another channel that can be used to propagate better diving skills? Your thoughts…… __________________ You watch me switch. www.redseaexplorers.com

January 17th, 2006, 02:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
jb2cool(Offline) Padawan learner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire Posts: 803	Why bother? What will a PADI speciality add that GUE's DIR-F does not? It might get some divers to brush up on their skills but those that would be interested would probably be looking at other agencies anyway. As already mentioned, PADI instructors that have an interest in DIR will probably teach to this anyway. __________________ http://jb2cool.bulldoghome.com Last edited by jb2cool; January 17th, 2006 at 02:11 PM.

January 17th, 2006, 02:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
ppo2_diver(Offline) DIR Practitioner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Naperville, IL USA (Chicago Suburb) Posts: 108	I knew an instructor who wanted to do this. In this specific case, the person was not DIR trained and had just read JJ's book. He wasn't well versed in DIR to really offer high quality DIR training. I only think this would be a good idea if the instructor was a GUE instructor as well. Otherwise it would lessen the perception of DIR. I say GUE as they are the ones really driving what is DIR currently. The problem is that this may be perceived as low quality as many people don't have high expectations for PADI course. The instructor would have to ensure that the PADI distinctive specialty is taught with the very high standards as GUE. __________________ Duane A. Johnson Precision Diving

January 17th, 2006, 02:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
Red Sea Explorer(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Red Sea Posts: 236	If you look at it from the perspective of a dive operator who would like to offer something to interested divers that are visiting for a week or a few days. Getting a GUE instructor is still difficult in some areas of the world and would be expensive. This might be a good way to be able to have a structure and be able to issue a C-card for the C-card loving public. It could make sense. No? __________________ You watch me switch. www.redseaexplorers.com

January 17th, 2006, 02:24 PM	#6 (permalink)
Rick(Offline) Jock Exley Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Falkirk/Stratford UK Posts: 730	Calling Chardy!! __________________ Forget Everything And Remember http://phreaticzone.thedeepstop.com/ http://www.dublinbaydiving.com/

January 17th, 2006, 02:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
graham_hk(Offline) GUE instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: here, there and everywhere Posts: 780	No where in the standards does it say that snorkel must be worn on the mask or that divers must be overweighted kneeling on the bottom. I see no barriers to teaching divers in a DIR style under the PADI system (I make a modest attempt at this myself). I don't, therefore, see the need for a speciality - since it will only be taught by DIR minded instructors who should have taught there divers properly in the first place :D Graham

January 17th, 2006, 02:26 PM	#7 (permalink)
jb2cool(Offline) Padawan learner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire Posts: 803	I don't think so. You'd end up with a cut-down simplified version of DIR-F and it'd be worth very little. __________________ http://jb2cool.bulldoghome.com

January 17th, 2006, 02:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
Rich Walker(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sheffield Posts: 300	Quote: (Originally Posted by Red Sea Explorer) If you look at it from the perspective of a dive operator who would like to offer something to interested divers that are visiting for a week or a few days. Getting a GUE instructor is still difficult in some areas of the world and would be expensive. This might be a good way to be able to have a structure and be able to issue a C-card for the C-card loving public. It could make sense. No? Well, could the "graduating student" from this speciality seriously call themselves a DIR diver? Rich

January 17th, 2006, 02:38 PM	#9 (permalink)
Howard Payne(Offline) Strokey Dokily Doo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,204	I seriously think that the best way to promote GUE to non GUE divers is to say - come and give it a go, we're not saying we're doing it right and you're doing it wrong - but you may find the system has some ideas, tips or methods that you may wish to adopt in your own every day diving. If people then choose to take what they like away from the experience and incorporate it into their own diving under the auspices of another agency - then fine. They'll be safer, enjoy their diving more and be more relaxed in the water - no problem. I think a large proportion of divers who try it and see the whole system and how well it works and the quality of diver it produces will simply want to adopt it in its entirety, as I have done. I am regularly assisting with PADI courses, teaching OW students and even with my limited knowledge of DIR as a newbie - it is very hard not to incorporate some of the things you learn into teaching the PADI way. Many of the ideas are not incompatible. Trim and buoyancy, fin str*kes, ascent rates to the surface after a PADI 3min at 5m stop. I see no incompatibility. The great secret trick of this whole benign approach is, as everyone has found at one stage or another, it's very hard just to take bits of GUE and use it with something else. All of the elements of the system are so inter-dependent on each other that its hard to take one bit without taking it all. Another vote for hating snorkels. With my DM hat on, if I've got a bunch of divers in the water waiting to get back on a boat I'd far rather they all had regs in their mouths. 50 bar lasts forever at the surface and if they sink for whatever crazy reason - they're still breathing. Students constantly complain about having a snorkel banging around on the side of their head and the clips chew into mask straps with all the constant adjustment. A mask strap breaking under water on a novice diver really is potential problem. Less really is more. __________________ The Foxturd Chimp

January 17th, 2006, 02:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 905	First its not possible to do a PADI OW course in a DIR stile. The training would ber invalid as it breaches standards for PADI. 1: Long hose is fine but the location of the hose is unacceptable 2: Deploying the OOA reg from the mouth is not PADI So the long hose would need to be stowed differently and the reg hung in the chest triangle 3: PADI OW doesn't cover Nitrox so you would be on a non DIR tyre gas. 4: PADI teach the RDP and residual nitrogen calculations which dont follow DIR standards I am sure i could think of several more. So you cant run a PADI OW course in a DIR stile. However Apart from the use of the long hose and Nitrox for all diving to 30m I see no reason why a PADI OW course can not be carried out to the same standards as a DIR course. PADI OW includes trim and buoyancy, mask off drills controlled ascents OOA drills, gas planning etc. HOWEVER..... An extract from the PADI OW manual If a suggested technique for meeting a performance requirement doesn't work because of your personal situation, ask your instructor to help you attain your goal to become a divers by adapting or developing techniques that meet the requirements some other way. You need to meet the performance requirements to receive a PADI certification, but there are many ways besides those listed in this manual. How refreshing :D So what in what specific areas does the PADI OW course lack content? Or are you saying that the standard of instructors is poor? ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration diver in the village