Thinking outside the box?

daz · December 25th, 2005, 02:24 AM

A recent thread on computers got me thinking about some of the posts on the forum and the intended audience.

Now I'm not DIR (Shock!, Horror!) but I do find the system has much to offer but I also will not accept something on blind faith. I want it explained to me, I want to understand the pros and cons and if it makes sense to me as an improvement, I'll try it. (Or alternatively, I'll claim that my method/config has never caused me a problem and then promptly manage to get a long hose wedged in between a set of booted twins on the next dive

)

It's also easy to forget that some people are interested in DIR but they may not be ready to adopt DIR principles fully and they may also be diving with non DIR buddies, therefore there maybe other implications (For example using a torch for signalling is feck all use unless your buddy understands the system.)

If someone has 20 dives under their belt and is interested in DIR, switching their computer to gauge mode because that is the DIR recommended way might not be the brightest thing they ever do. However the knowledge of why computers are not neccessarily the greatest thing since sliced bread and why it is not advisable to rely on them is useful at any stage of their diving.

I only use the example above as it was a thread around computers that caused me to consider this and it did make a very valid point. It is important to use your brain and not follow a computer blindly. I would also suggest that this is true of all things in diving. No advice should be followed blindly, people should always question why something is done in a certain way. What are the benefits to me?, what are the implications.

DIR is not a destination, it's a journey :D
I however decided to take a different road

Daz

Mark Chase · December 25th, 2005, 05:37 AM

Daz echos my thoughts.

Its no use just saying this is the way, its important to understand why. The example of computers is typical. Its worth noting that the dive computers available when GI3 started slagging them off were very basic. The VR3 in its old Bhulman/Pyle stops based system hadn't even been invented. The VPM based VR3 which offers very DOTF looking profiles has only just been launched this year.

OK I doubt if GI3 and JJ will suddenly jump up and endorse it. Their system works for them and its a damed site cheaper but its worth being aware of the history.

Some other elements of DIR have their grounding in cave diving using scooters. As a result when transfered over to open water diving they are less than perfect. Rather than say, we do it like this to maintain the integrity of a one system fits all configuration (which is the truth) new DIR followers tend to just state that its the best way and all other ways are rubbish.

This infuriates non DIR divers who are experienced enough to know the truth. This results in arguments and reflects badly on the diver who appears to be blindly following a system with no appreciation as to why its done like that.

Personally I find DIR very attractive because of the standard of training currently available in the UK and because of the attitude to teem work and safety demonstrated by all the DIR divers I have had the pleasure to dive with. I now have a DIR rig but this is not something that has proved to be amazing or suddenly the perfect rig. No in fact its something of a problem to be overcome to allow me to dive with DIR divers. The rig is not the goal for me the goal is to dive with like minded people, people who appreciate the need to train hard and practice regularly. People I can rely on when I am diving with them.

This is not unique to DIR I have met and dived with many like minded people outside DIR but I only expect to find a couple of people like that on any dive boat. On a DIR dive boat I expect to be able to buddy any one and for it to be a good dive and if anything goes wrong that they will react positively. I know they expect that of me too which is fine.

Any how I am going to try once more to get some sleep, so good night / morning and I hope your Christmas day goes brilliantly.

ATB

Mark Chase

StSomewhere · December 25th, 2005, 06:45 AM

Edited: Sorry, I didn't read between the lines that you were considering a RB.

John

*Clare Gledhill* · December 25th, 2005, 10:58 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by daz)

I however decided to take a different road

Oooh - there is a KISS shaped box under the tree is there?

A board dedicated to one agency is always going to be open to the charge of meek acceptance of one way of doing things - but you make a valid point that we should always be aware of the reasons why we do what we do. Most of the divers on here that I have met are strong personalities who have required persuasion that DIR and its proceedures are the best way. What we must avoid is the trap of believing that just because WE are now persuaded others may still wish to consider the reasons/ arguments for themselves.

Explaination, constructive criticism and questioning will always have a role to play in DIR X. If they didn't - I'd spend my time doing something more ntersting instead.

Merry Christmas.

Mark Chase · December 25th, 2005, 12:07 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by StSomewhere)

Edited: Sorry, I didn't read between the lines that you were considering a RB.

John

Who me or Daz?

I already dive a CCR for deep trimix and I wont be changing because its not practical to dive OC for the diving I do. Shallow diving I prefer OC so I dive twin 7s in a DIR stile with a single deco gas down to 30 ish m. Hopefully I can get Tech 1 before the year is out and then I can be DIR for my OC diving rather than just doing what I think is DIR at the moment. DIRF booked 27th Jan

ATB

Mark Chase

daz · December 25th, 2005, 03:51 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gledders)

Oooh - there is a KISS shaped box under the tree is there?

Nope, looks like you posted it too late..... Can't wait for it to turn up though

Quote: (Originally Posted by StSomewhere)

Edited: Sorry, I didn't read between the lines that you were considering a RB.

Me? I don't know what your original post said but sorry for any misunderstanding, my reference "I however decided to take a different road" doesn't refer to me going down the RB route although I would consider one. In much the same way as I would consider trimix, I would consider a scooter, I would consider wearing a pink tutu but only after weighing up all the pros and cons and ultimately if it made sense for the diving I am doing.

My reference refers to me choosing a different route/training/agency/method of getting to where I am.

Part of the problem as I see it is people just blindly leaping in because they see DIR divers as being superb in the water

and obviously looking cool

Now potentially this could be a problem with computers in gauge mode. The person decides that it's the cool way to dive but they can't actually find out all the information they need until day 4 of the Tech1 course to use Al's example. All the information they read or get told, tells them that running a computer in gauge mode is the way to go and trusting deco information on computers is bad

I guess the point is that realistically someone can't be DIR overnight, they should accept that it will take time/training and knowledge that they will get when they do DIRF and more information when they do Tech1. In the meantime it's ok if you still run your computer as normal, it is OK if you use a granny knot to tie boltsnaps on, it is ok if you are using ankle weights, you will not self combust if you happen to touch the bottom.

I'm not suggesting that the posts I have seen on this forum reflect my concerns but it does happen and not only from DIR but all agencies.

Daz

jluttichau · December 26th, 2005, 03:34 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by daz)

Now potentially this could be a problem with computers in gauge mode. The person decides that it's the cool way to dive but they can't actually find out all the information they need until day 4 of the Tech1 course to use Al's example. All the information they read or get told, tells them that running a computer in gauge mode is the way to go and trusting deco information on computers is bad

Hasn't everyone been taught how to use tables in their basic scuba training? Then what is the problem with anyone new to diving running their computer i gauge mode. No you shouldn't just jump in the water and do the dive with your computer in gauge mode. You now have to PLAN the dive from tables, which is one of the points of not using a computer.

And i agree that doing things the right way is not something that happens overnight, and i also agree that you should not do anything unless you know exactly why you're doing it and you're confident that it is the better way. But that being said you should consider that there might be a better way to do it then what is apparent to you right now. It all comes down to getting the bigger picture and understanding all the reasons why something(DIR) is considered better then anything else

Cheers
Jonas

rjack · December 27th, 2005, 05:50 PM

I had a brief period when I ran my vyper in computer mode while adding deeper stops and running from memorized min deco tables. Didn't really work for me. Depth averaging, time monitoring, and real "on the fly" adjustments didn't come along (in my brain) until I switched to gauge mode.

I've always been a little surprised when people say they have a good understanding of their obligations and also rely on their computer. That didn't work one bit for me.

Richard

Chris B · December 28th, 2005, 02:01 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by daz)

A recent thread on computers got me thinking about some of the posts on the forum and the intended audience.

Now I'm not DIR (Shock!, Horror!) but I do find the system has much to offer but I also will not accept something on blind faith. I want it explained to me, I want to understand the pros and cons and if it makes sense to me as an improvement, I'll try it. (Or alternatively, I'll claim that my method/config has never caused me a problem and then promptly manage to get a long hose wedged in between a set of booted twins on the next dive

)

It's also easy to forget that some people are interested in DIR but they may not be ready to adopt DIR principles fully and they may also be diving with non DIR buddies, therefore there maybe other implications (For example using a torch for signaling is feck all use unless your buddy understands the system.)

If someone has 20 dives under their belt and is interested in DIR, switching their computer to gauge mode because that is the DIR recommended way might not be the brightest thing they ever do. However the knowledge of why computers are not necessarily the greatest thing since sliced bread and why it is not advisable to rely on them is useful at any stage of their diving.

I only use the example above as it was a thread around computers that caused me to consider this and it did make a very valid point. It is important to use your brain and not follow a computer blindly. I would also suggest that this is true of all things in diving. No advice should be followed blindly, people should always question why something is done in a certain way. What are the benefits to me?, what are the implications.

DIR is not a destination, it's a journey :D
I however decided to take a different road

Daz

Hello Daz,

I would agree with you totally, in fact constantly asking the question 'why?' is what I built a career on. I felt exactly as you do towards this 'DIR' thing, so I kept asking why.

GUE courses delivered by far the most useful advise/information/skills and taught them using the most advanced methods. (Video feedback, fail and fix, post course matrix analyisis...etc)

Unfortunately only by doing the courses was I truly convinced by the DIR 'Why' although it still has flaws.

I would concur that you should be fully convinced before adopting anything however if people ONLY go as far as the INTERNET and word of mouth, they will likely never have full understanding. In the worst cases (frequent) they THINK they have the full picture and then base their opinions on something incorrect. This is both a shame and quite frustrating.

If you really want the full answer, I would suggest the ONLY way is to take the courses

Cheers

Chris B

Chris B · December 28th, 2005, 02:09 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Daz echos my thoughts.

Its no use just saying this is the way, its important to understand why. The example of computers is typical. Its worth noting that the dive computers available when GI3 started slagging them off were very basic. The VR3 in its old Bhulman/Pyle stops based system hadn't even been invented. The VPM based VR3 which offers very DOTF looking profiles has only just been launched this year.

OK I doubt if GI3 and JJ will suddenly jump up and endorse it. Their system works for them and its a damed site cheaper but its worth being aware of the history.

Some other elements of DIR have their grounding in cave diving using scooters. As a result when transfered over to open water diving they are less than perfect. Rather than say, we do it like this to maintain the integrity of a one system fits all configuration (which is the truth) new DIR followers tend to just state that its the best way and all other ways are rubbish.

This infuriates non DIR divers who are experienced enough to know the truth. This results in arguments and reflects badly on the diver who appears to be blindly following a system with no appreciation as to why its done like that.

Personally I find DIR very attractive because of the standard of training currently available in the UK and because of the attitude to teem work and safety demonstrated by all the DIR divers I have had the pleasure to dive with. I now have a DIR rig but this is not something that has proved to be amazing or suddenly the perfect rig. No in fact its something of a problem to be overcome to allow me to dive with DIR divers. The rig is not the goal for me the goal is to dive with like minded people, people who appreciate the need to train hard and practice regularly. People I can rely on when I am diving with them.

This is not unique to DIR I have met and dived with many like minded people outside DIR but I only expect to find a couple of people like that on any dive boat. On a DIR dive boat I expect to be able to buddy any one and for it to be a good dive and if anything goes wrong that they will react positively. I know they expect that of me too which is fine.

Any how I am going to try once more to get some sleep, so good night / morning and I hope your Christmas day goes brilliantly.

ATB

Mark Chase

I just wanted to echo these sentiments entirely, no system will be perfect for everything and beware anyone who tells you otherwise. What GUE teach is the best compromise I have come across.

Apart from the wanna bees, I find DIR trained diver seem to be the ones who truly appreciate good training, regular practice, attention to detail...etc although they have no exclusive rights to being conscientious.

December 25th, 2005, 02:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
daz(Offline) "Don't worry I'm approved" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bristol Posts: 209	Thinking outside the box? A recent thread on computers got me thinking about some of the posts on the forum and the intended audience. Now I'm not DIR (Shock!, Horror!) but I do find the system has much to offer but I also will not accept something on blind faith. I want it explained to me, I want to understand the pros and cons and if it makes sense to me as an improvement, I'll try it. (Or alternatively, I'll claim that my method/config has never caused me a problem and then promptly manage to get a long hose wedged in between a set of booted twins on the next dive ) It's also easy to forget that some people are interested in DIR but they may not be ready to adopt DIR principles fully and they may also be diving with non DIR buddies, therefore there maybe other implications (For example using a torch for signalling is feck all use unless your buddy understands the system.) If someone has 20 dives under their belt and is interested in DIR, switching their computer to gauge mode because that is the DIR recommended way might not be the brightest thing they ever do. However the knowledge of why computers are not neccessarily the greatest thing since sliced bread and why it is not advisable to rely on them is useful at any stage of their diving. I only use the example above as it was a thread around computers that caused me to consider this and it did make a very valid point. It is important to use your brain and not follow a computer blindly. I would also suggest that this is true of all things in diving. No advice should be followed blindly, people should always question why something is done in a certain way. What are the benefits to me?, what are the implications. DIR is not a destination, it's a journey :D I however decided to take a different road Daz

December 25th, 2005, 06:45 AM	#3 (permalink)
StSomewhere(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Far from deep water Posts: 43	Edited: Sorry, I didn't read between the lines that you were considering a RB. John __________________ I gotta go where its warm... Last edited by StSomewhere; December 25th, 2005 at 11:16 AM.

December 25th, 2005, 10:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
Clare Gledhill(Offline) GUE Instructor Site Admin Pacman Champion! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,540	Quote: (Originally Posted by daz) I however decided to take a different road Oooh - there is a KISS shaped box under the tree is there? A board dedicated to one agency is always going to be open to the charge of meek acceptance of one way of doing things - but you make a valid point that we should always be aware of the reasons why we do what we do. Most of the divers on here that I have met are strong personalities who have required persuasion that DIR and its proceedures are the best way. What we must avoid is the trap of believing that just because WE are now persuaded others may still wish to consider the reasons/ arguments for themselves. Explaination, constructive criticism and questioning will always have a role to play in DIR X. If they didn't - I'd spend my time doing something more ntersting instead. Merry Christmas. __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk

December 28th, 2005, 02:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
Chris B(Offline) Chris B Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NW UK Posts: 229	Understanding Quote: (Originally Posted by daz) A recent thread on computers got me thinking about some of the posts on the forum and the intended audience. Now I'm not DIR (Shock!, Horror!) but I do find the system has much to offer but I also will not accept something on blind faith. I want it explained to me, I want to understand the pros and cons and if it makes sense to me as an improvement, I'll try it. (Or alternatively, I'll claim that my method/config has never caused me a problem and then promptly manage to get a long hose wedged in between a set of booted twins on the next dive ) It's also easy to forget that some people are interested in DIR but they may not be ready to adopt DIR principles fully and they may also be diving with non DIR buddies, therefore there maybe other implications (For example using a torch for signaling is feck all use unless your buddy understands the system.) If someone has 20 dives under their belt and is interested in DIR, switching their computer to gauge mode because that is the DIR recommended way might not be the brightest thing they ever do. However the knowledge of why computers are not necessarily the greatest thing since sliced bread and why it is not advisable to rely on them is useful at any stage of their diving. I only use the example above as it was a thread around computers that caused me to consider this and it did make a very valid point. It is important to use your brain and not follow a computer blindly. I would also suggest that this is true of all things in diving. No advice should be followed blindly, people should always question why something is done in a certain way. What are the benefits to me?, what are the implications. DIR is not a destination, it's a journey :D I however decided to take a different road Daz Hello Daz, I would agree with you totally, in fact constantly asking the question 'why?' is what I built a career on. I felt exactly as you do towards this 'DIR' thing, so I kept asking why. GUE courses delivered by far the most useful advise/information/skills and taught them using the most advanced methods. (Video feedback, fail and fix, post course matrix analyisis...etc) Unfortunately only by doing the courses was I truly convinced by the DIR 'Why' although it still has flaws. I would concur that you should be fully convinced before adopting anything however if people ONLY go as far as the INTERNET and word of mouth, they will likely never have full understanding. In the worst cases (frequent) they THINK they have the full picture and then base their opinions on something incorrect. This is both a shame and quite frustrating. If you really want the full answer, I would suggest the ONLY way is to take the courses Cheers Chris B

December 25th, 2005, 05:37 AM	#2 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 905	Daz echos my thoughts. Its no use just saying this is the way, its important to understand why. The example of computers is typical. Its worth noting that the dive computers available when GI3 started slagging them off were very basic. The VR3 in its old Bhulman/Pyle stops based system hadn't even been invented. The VPM based VR3 which offers very DOTF looking profiles has only just been launched this year. OK I doubt if GI3 and JJ will suddenly jump up and endorse it. Their system works for them and its a damed site cheaper but its worth being aware of the history. Some other elements of DIR have their grounding in cave diving using scooters. As a result when transfered over to open water diving they are less than perfect. Rather than say, we do it like this to maintain the integrity of a one system fits all configuration (which is the truth) new DIR followers tend to just state that its the best way and all other ways are rubbish. This infuriates non DIR divers who are experienced enough to know the truth. This results in arguments and reflects badly on the diver who appears to be blindly following a system with no appreciation as to why its done like that. Personally I find DIR very attractive because of the standard of training currently available in the UK and because of the attitude to teem work and safety demonstrated by all the DIR divers I have had the pleasure to dive with. I now have a DIR rig but this is not something that has proved to be amazing or suddenly the perfect rig. No in fact its something of a problem to be overcome to allow me to dive with DIR divers. The rig is not the goal for me the goal is to dive with like minded people, people who appreciate the need to train hard and practice regularly. People I can rely on when I am diving with them. This is not unique to DIR I have met and dived with many like minded people outside DIR but I only expect to find a couple of people like that on any dive boat. On a DIR dive boat I expect to be able to buddy any one and for it to be a good dive and if anything goes wrong that they will react positively. I know they expect that of me too which is fine. Any how I am going to try once more to get some sleep, so good night / morning and I hope your Christmas day goes brilliantly. ATB Mark Chase

December 25th, 2005, 12:07 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 905	Quote: (Originally Posted by StSomewhere) Edited: Sorry, I didn't read between the lines that you were considering a RB. John Who me or Daz? I already dive a CCR for deep trimix and I wont be changing because its not practical to dive OC for the diving I do. Shallow diving I prefer OC so I dive twin 7s in a DIR stile with a single deco gas down to 30 ish m. Hopefully I can get Tech 1 before the year is out and then I can be DIR for my OC diving rather than just doing what I think is DIR at the moment. DIRF booked 27th Jan ATB Mark Chase

December 25th, 2005, 03:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
daz(Offline) "Don't worry I'm approved" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bristol Posts: 209	Quote: (Originally Posted by Gledders) Oooh - there is a KISS shaped box under the tree is there? Nope, looks like you posted it too late..... Can't wait for it to turn up though Quote: (Originally Posted by StSomewhere) Edited: Sorry, I didn't read between the lines that you were considering a RB. Me? I don't know what your original post said but sorry for any misunderstanding, my reference "I however decided to take a different road" doesn't refer to me going down the RB route although I would consider one. In much the same way as I would consider trimix, I would consider a scooter, I would consider wearing a pink tutu but only after weighing up all the pros and cons and ultimately if it made sense for the diving I am doing. My reference refers to me choosing a different route/training/agency/method of getting to where I am. Part of the problem as I see it is people just blindly leaping in because they see DIR divers as being superb in the water and obviously looking cool Now potentially this could be a problem with computers in gauge mode. The person decides that it's the cool way to dive but they can't actually find out all the information they need until day 4 of the Tech1 course to use Al's example. All the information they read or get told, tells them that running a computer in gauge mode is the way to go and trusting deco information on computers is bad I guess the point is that realistically someone can't be DIR overnight, they should accept that it will take time/training and knowledge that they will get when they do DIRF and more information when they do Tech1. In the meantime it's ok if you still run your computer as normal, it is OK if you use a granny knot to tie boltsnaps on, it is ok if you are using ankle weights, you will not self combust if you happen to touch the bottom. I'm not suggesting that the posts I have seen on this forum reflect my concerns but it does happen and not only from DIR but all agencies. Daz

December 26th, 2005, 03:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
jluttichau(Offline) Custom User Title Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 437	Quote: (Originally Posted by daz) Now potentially this could be a problem with computers in gauge mode. The person decides that it's the cool way to dive but they can't actually find out all the information they need until day 4 of the Tech1 course to use Al's example. All the information they read or get told, tells them that running a computer in gauge mode is the way to go and trusting deco information on computers is bad Hasn't everyone been taught how to use tables in their basic scuba training? Then what is the problem with anyone new to diving running their computer i gauge mode. No you shouldn't just jump in the water and do the dive with your computer in gauge mode. You now have to PLAN the dive from tables, which is one of the points of not using a computer. And i agree that doing things the right way is not something that happens overnight, and i also agree that you should not do anything unless you know exactly why you're doing it and you're confident that it is the better way. But that being said you should consider that there might be a better way to do it then what is apparent to you right now. It all comes down to getting the bigger picture and understanding all the reasons why something(DIR) is considered better then anything else Cheers Jonas

December 27th, 2005, 05:50 PM	#8 (permalink)
rjack(Offline) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 860	I had a brief period when I ran my vyper in computer mode while adding deeper stops and running from memorized min deco tables. Didn't really work for me. Depth averaging, time monitoring, and real "on the fly" adjustments didn't come along (in my brain) until I switched to gauge mode. I've always been a little surprised when people say they have a good understanding of their obligations and also rely on their computer. That didn't work one bit for me. Richard

December 28th, 2005, 02:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
Chris B(Offline) Chris B Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NW UK Posts: 229	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Daz echos my thoughts. Its no use just saying this is the way, its important to understand why. The example of computers is typical. Its worth noting that the dive computers available when GI3 started slagging them off were very basic. The VR3 in its old Bhulman/Pyle stops based system hadn't even been invented. The VPM based VR3 which offers very DOTF looking profiles has only just been launched this year. OK I doubt if GI3 and JJ will suddenly jump up and endorse it. Their system works for them and its a damed site cheaper but its worth being aware of the history. Some other elements of DIR have their grounding in cave diving using scooters. As a result when transfered over to open water diving they are less than perfect. Rather than say, we do it like this to maintain the integrity of a one system fits all configuration (which is the truth) new DIR followers tend to just state that its the best way and all other ways are rubbish. This infuriates non DIR divers who are experienced enough to know the truth. This results in arguments and reflects badly on the diver who appears to be blindly following a system with no appreciation as to why its done like that. Personally I find DIR very attractive because of the standard of training currently available in the UK and because of the attitude to teem work and safety demonstrated by all the DIR divers I have had the pleasure to dive with. I now have a DIR rig but this is not something that has proved to be amazing or suddenly the perfect rig. No in fact its something of a problem to be overcome to allow me to dive with DIR divers. The rig is not the goal for me the goal is to dive with like minded people, people who appreciate the need to train hard and practice regularly. People I can rely on when I am diving with them. This is not unique to DIR I have met and dived with many like minded people outside DIR but I only expect to find a couple of people like that on any dive boat. On a DIR dive boat I expect to be able to buddy any one and for it to be a good dive and if anything goes wrong that they will react positively. I know they expect that of me too which is fine. Any how I am going to try once more to get some sleep, so good night / morning and I hope your Christmas day goes brilliantly. ATB Mark Chase I just wanted to echo these sentiments entirely, no system will be perfect for everything and beware anyone who tells you otherwise. What GUE teach is the best compromise I have come across. Apart from the wanna bees, I find DIR trained diver seem to be the ones who truly appreciate good training, regular practice, attention to detail...etc although they have no exclusive rights to being conscientious.