Ethics

Ali Fikree · February 27th, 2008, 11:04 AM

I am stuck between a rock and a hard place so I thought I would ask this to everyone.

I recently had 3 adv. nitrox students. Two of them performed really well and are great divers.

The third one presented me with a problem. While his, dive skills, trim, theory was excellent , he carried a very arrogant attitude and would not work well with the other two.

He got full marks on the theory and has performed really well, but I dont know if I ought to pass him as he has a bit of an cocky attitude and will constantly humiliate everyone else. He behaved different with me around but the others were not happy.

Others that know him say he is the same with everyone else and refuses to work with everyone.

Opinions?

A

Andreas Rosland · February 27th, 2008, 11:17 AM

If you think he will be a safe diver, give him the card. Else tell him what he have to work on. I will understand you if you think his attitude make him an unsafe diver.

Ali Fikree · February 27th, 2008, 11:46 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by spetznaz)

If you think he will be a safe diver, give him the card. Else tell him what he have to work on. I will understand you if you think his attitude make him an unsafe diver.

I am pretty close to telling him to go work on his manners and then come back. But there is nothing that says he cannot pass.

graham_hk · February 27th, 2008, 12:22 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ali Fikree)

I am pretty close to telling him to go work on his manners and then come back. But there is nothing that says he cannot pass.

then you need to show him the value of team!

*JGrogan* · February 27th, 2008, 12:25 PM

Hi Ali,

Parker Turner used to say that he expected his students to "respect the cave" and would fail students who didn't. Basically, this boiled down to attitude - having the wrong attitude merited a failure.

In short, my view is that if a student is a danger to himself or others, then they should not pass. Danger extends beyond simple skills and extends into attitude. From what you say, it looks like he's just not a team player.

Best,
John.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ali Fikree)

I am stuck between a rock and a hard place so I thought I would ask this to everyone.

I recently had 3 adv. nitrox students. Two of them performed really well and are great divers.

The third one presented me with a problem. While his, dive skills, trim, theory was excellent , he carried a very arrogant attitude and would not work well with the other two.

He got full marks on the theory and has performed really well, but I dont know if I ought to pass him as he has a bit of an cocky attitude and will constantly humiliate everyone else. He behaved different with me around but the others were not happy.

Others that know him say he is the same with everyone else and refuses to work with everyone.

Opinions?

A

Ali Fikree · February 27th, 2008, 12:30 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan)

Hi Ali,

Parker Turner used to say that he expected his students to "respect the cave" and would fail students who didn't. Basically, this boiled down to attitude - having the wrong attitude merited a failure.

In short, my view is that if a student is a danger to himself or others, then they should not pass. Danger extends beyond simple skills and extends into attitude. From what you say, it looks like he's just not a team player.

Best,
John.

Thats pretty much what I am thinking.

Igor Beades · February 27th, 2008, 02:52 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ali Fikree)

I am stuck between a rock and a hard place so I thought I would ask this to everyone.

I recently had 3 adv. nitrox students. Two of them performed really well and are great divers.

The third one presented me with a problem. While his, dive skills, trim, theory was excellent , he carried a very arrogant attitude and would not work well with the other two.

He got full marks on the theory and has performed really well, but I dont know if I ought to pass him as he has a bit of an cocky attitude and will constantly humiliate everyone else. He behaved different with me around but the others were not happy.

Others that know him say he is the same with everyone else and refuses to work with everyone.

Opinions?

A

Hi Ali,

First of all, excuse me for my reproach. I am not a very good English speeker and it is hard for me to be accurate choosing my words.

Said that, your post is entitled "Ethics". I do not want to write about this thing; for me ethic is a serious subject talking about amateur sports, but not for teaching.

Are you really asking in the forum what criteria you -the instructor- should apply on the courses?

How can your students know your requirements before choosing your courses? May I be missing anything?

Sorry for being so direct,

Igor

Devon Rob · February 27th, 2008, 03:48 PM

If his arrogance was displayed during dive planning, dive preperation or under water then I personally would think very hard about a straight pass as that`s a definitive safety problem.

If his behaviour was limited to dry land only and consisted of being a general jerk then I would probably give his team mates a bollocking for not putting him in line themselves!

I would certainly tell him that I was considering failing him and give him a chance to put his side (there are always two

).

HTH
Rob

@ Igor: I see no problem with asking advice of this nature here, we all need input from others sometimes even if we ignore the advice. And..you have no need to apologise for your English!

Gene_Hobbs · February 27th, 2008, 03:53 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan)

Parker Turner used to say that he expected his students to "respect the cave" and would fail students who didn't. Basically, this boiled down to attitude - having the wrong attitude merited a failure.

John - I was thinking this EXACT same thing.

Ali, My thoughts are pretty simple.

Attitude affects many human factors aspects of diving and these have been identified as nontechnical causes of diving accidents (1, 2):
* Situational Awareness
* Decision Making
* Communication
* Supervision/ Leadership
* Team Cohesion
* Personal resources (Mainly for the other team members in the case of a bad attitude)

A good debrief should include all of these things and attitude of individuals should be brought up at each point in the debrief (not just by the instructor in a class but by the other members of the team if the team is to grow). Good luck with the discussion with him.

1. O'Connor. A Navy Diving Supervisor's Guide to the Nontechnical Skills Required for Safe and Productive Diving Operations. US Naval Experimental Diving Unit. 2005. NEDU-TR-05-09. RRR ID: 3478
2. O'Connor. The nontechnical causes of diving accidents: can U.S. Navy divers learn from other industries? Undersea Hyperb Med. 2007 Jan-Feb;34(1):51-9. RRR ID: 5513

rjack · February 27th, 2008, 05:51 PM

I think you should give him a "provisional" and ask that he come back for further diving after practicing his teamwork. Some folks need a bit of a spanking to understand thier weakness. If you talk to him but still give him a card he's unlikely to really change. If you give him the message that his attitude is unacceptable by withholding certification he's more likely to fix it. I think instructors should lay a path to success with cookies

February 27th, 2008, 11:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
Ali Fikree(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Dubai Posts: 465	Ethics I am stuck between a rock and a hard place so I thought I would ask this to everyone. I recently had 3 adv. nitrox students. Two of them performed really well and are great divers. The third one presented me with a problem. While his, dive skills, trim, theory was excellent , he carried a very arrogant attitude and would not work well with the other two. He got full marks on the theory and has performed really well, but I dont know if I ought to pass him as he has a bit of an cocky attitude and will constantly humiliate everyone else. He behaved different with me around but the others were not happy. Others that know him say he is the same with everyone else and refuses to work with everyone. Opinions? A __________________ Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul

February 27th, 2008, 11:17 AM	#2 (permalink)
Andreas Rosland(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 75	If you think he will be a safe diver, give him the card. Else tell him what he have to work on. I will understand you if you think his attitude make him an unsafe diver. __________________ I can resist anything but temptation

February 27th, 2008, 11:46 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ali Fikree(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Dubai Posts: 465	Quote: (Originally Posted by spetznaz) If you think he will be a safe diver, give him the card. Else tell him what he have to work on. I will understand you if you think his attitude make him an unsafe diver. I am pretty close to telling him to go work on his manners and then come back. But there is nothing that says he cannot pass. __________________ Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul

February 27th, 2008, 12:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
graham_hk(Offline) GUE instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: here, there and everywhere Posts: 780	Quote: (Originally Posted by Ali Fikree) I am pretty close to telling him to go work on his manners and then come back. But there is nothing that says he cannot pass. then you need to show him the value of team! __________________ DIN caps and plugs with free world wide postage: www.dustcap.halcyon-hk.com

February 27th, 2008, 12:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
Ali Fikree(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Dubai Posts: 465	Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan) Hi Ali, Parker Turner used to say that he expected his students to "respect the cave" and would fail students who didn't. Basically, this boiled down to attitude - having the wrong attitude merited a failure. In short, my view is that if a student is a danger to himself or others, then they should not pass. Danger extends beyond simple skills and extends into attitude. From what you say, it looks like he's just not a team player. Best, John. Thats pretty much what I am thinking. __________________ Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul

February 27th, 2008, 12:25 PM	#5 (permalink)
JGrogan(Offline) GUE Join Date: May 2006 Location: London Posts: 442	Hi Ali, Parker Turner used to say that he expected his students to "respect the cave" and would fail students who didn't. Basically, this boiled down to attitude - having the wrong attitude merited a failure. In short, my view is that if a student is a danger to himself or others, then they should not pass. Danger extends beyond simple skills and extends into attitude. From what you say, it looks like he's just not a team player. Best, John. Quote: (Originally Posted by Ali Fikree) I am stuck between a rock and a hard place so I thought I would ask this to everyone. I recently had 3 adv. nitrox students. Two of them performed really well and are great divers. The third one presented me with a problem. While his, dive skills, trim, theory was excellent , he carried a very arrogant attitude and would not work well with the other two. He got full marks on the theory and has performed really well, but I dont know if I ought to pass him as he has a bit of an cocky attitude and will constantly humiliate everyone else. He behaved different with me around but the others were not happy. Others that know him say he is the same with everyone else and refuses to work with everyone. Opinions? A

February 27th, 2008, 02:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
Igor Beades(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Crazy Spain Posts: 119	Quote: (Originally Posted by Ali Fikree) I am stuck between a rock and a hard place so I thought I would ask this to everyone. I recently had 3 adv. nitrox students. Two of them performed really well and are great divers. The third one presented me with a problem. While his, dive skills, trim, theory was excellent , he carried a very arrogant attitude and would not work well with the other two. He got full marks on the theory and has performed really well, but I dont know if I ought to pass him as he has a bit of an cocky attitude and will constantly humiliate everyone else. He behaved different with me around but the others were not happy. Others that know him say he is the same with everyone else and refuses to work with everyone. Opinions? A Hi Ali, First of all, excuse me for my reproach. I am not a very good English speeker and it is hard for me to be accurate choosing my words. Said that, your post is entitled "Ethics". I do not want to write about this thing; for me ethic is a serious subject talking about amateur sports, but not for teaching. Are you really asking in the forum what criteria you -the instructor- should apply on the courses? How can your students know your requirements before choosing your courses? May I be missing anything? Sorry for being so direct, Igor __________________ "Everything was going okay until we got into the water"

February 27th, 2008, 03:48 PM	#8 (permalink)
Devon Rob(Offline) Can´t remember-member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lyme Bay.Devon.UK formerly Hamburg, Ger. Posts: 316	If his arrogance was displayed during dive planning, dive preperation or under water then I personally would think very hard about a straight pass as that`s a definitive safety problem. If his behaviour was limited to dry land only and consisted of being a general jerk then I would probably give his team mates a bollocking for not putting him in line themselves! I would certainly tell him that I was considering failing him and give him a chance to put his side (there are always two ). HTH Rob @ Igor: I see no problem with asking advice of this nature here, we all need input from others sometimes even if we ignore the advice. And..you have no need to apologise for your English! __________________ this mail was checked for viruses,worms & bad breath Last edited by Devon Rob; February 27th, 2008 at 08:27 PM.

February 27th, 2008, 03:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
Gene_Hobbs(Offline) WKPP Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Durham, NC, USA Posts: 60	nontechnical causes of diving accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by JGrogan) Parker Turner used to say that he expected his students to "respect the cave" and would fail students who didn't. Basically, this boiled down to attitude - having the wrong attitude merited a failure. John - I was thinking this EXACT same thing. Ali, My thoughts are pretty simple. Attitude affects many human factors aspects of diving and these have been identified as nontechnical causes of diving accidents (1, 2): * Situational Awareness * Decision Making * Communication * Supervision/ Leadership * Team Cohesion * Personal resources (Mainly for the other team members in the case of a bad attitude) A good debrief should include all of these things and attitude of individuals should be brought up at each point in the debrief (not just by the instructor in a class but by the other members of the team if the team is to grow). Good luck with the discussion with him. 1. O'Connor. A Navy Diving Supervisor's Guide to the Nontechnical Skills Required for Safe and Productive Diving Operations. US Naval Experimental Diving Unit. 2005. NEDU-TR-05-09. RRR ID: 3478 2. O'Connor. The nontechnical causes of diving accidents: can U.S. Navy divers learn from other industries? Undersea Hyperb Med. 2007 Jan-Feb;34(1):51-9. RRR ID: 5513 __________________ http://rubicon-foundation.org/ Home of the Rubicon Research Repository. For help getting started with the Repository, please visit our FAQ page. PLEASE support our work. "Oxygen is addictive and deadly. Everyone who uses it will eventually die" --RW Hamilton, PhD 1991 Last edited by Gene_Hobbs; February 27th, 2008 at 03:59 PM. Reason: this is all to common...

February 27th, 2008, 05:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
rjack(Offline) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 863	I think you should give him a "provisional" and ask that he come back for further diving after practicing his teamwork. Some folks need a bit of a spanking to understand thier weakness. If you talk to him but still give him a card he's unlikely to really change. If you give him the message that his attitude is unacceptable by withholding certification he's more likely to fix it. I think instructors should lay a path to success with cookies