DIR Variations

Philippe · February 4th, 2008, 05:58 PM

Hello guys!

In my opinion DIR is a holistic philosophy with a couple of small variations.

Now we have:

1. GI - DIR / WKPP - DIR (GI = George Irvine)
2. GUE - DIR
3. EKPP - DIR
4. AG - DIR (AG = Andrew Georgitsis)

So what are the small differences?

May be different batteries, gas mixes, underwear, dry suit modifications and so on.

Lets work out that stuff ! :-)

**Howard Payne** · February 4th, 2008, 11:02 PM

Needs someone better qualified than me - but heres my take:

I know Georgitsis uses 25/25 as an Ocean gas for the 30-40m range which seems very sensible to me as 30/30 is quite limiting in its depth range when you don't quite know which dive you'll be doing which is often the case with the challenging and rapidly changing conditions here in the UK.

I suspect that to get hung up on minor details and differences is to miss the point? Any of these people will be damn fine divers with tons in common and I'm sure I'd be happy to share a dive with any of them assuming it's within my limits.

DIR for me is so much more to do with the whole rather than getting caught up in minute details. Unfortunately it always seems to be the minute details that get picked over in excrutitaing agony on the internet?

Respectfully, lets concentrate on the big picture eh? I just spent the most amazing 10 days in Mexico learning to cave dive with a truly great GUE Instructor - but in spite of plenty of detail - it was the great diving and superb company that made this trip great - not the minutae.

TDave · February 5th, 2008, 03:58 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Howard Payne)

Needs someone better qualified than me - but heres my take:

I know Georgitsis uses 25/25 as an Ocean gas for the 30-40m range which seems very sensible to me as 30/30 is quite limiting in its depth range when you don't quite know which dive you'll be doing which is often the case with the challenging and rapidly changing conditions here in the UK.

I suspect that to get hung up on minor details and differences is to miss the point? Any of these people will be damn fine divers with tons in common and I'm sure I'd be happy to share a dive with any of them assuming it's within my limits.

DIR for me is so much more to do with the whole rather than getting caught up in minute details. Unfortunately it always seems to be the minute details that get picked over in excrutitaing agony on the internet?

Respectfully, lets concentrate on the big picture eh? I just spent the most amazing 10 days in Mexico learning to cave dive with a truly great GUE Instructor - but in spite of plenty of detail - it was the great diving and superb company that made this trip great - not the minutae.

This.

LCF · February 5th, 2008, 04:04 AM

I've taken Fundies and Rec Triox through GUE, and NAUI Helitrox from AG. There are definitely differences in training between the two agencies. GUE is much more restrictive about what instructors can do in their classes -- no air gun in Rec Triox, no removing masks, no fiddling with students' valves. AG can and will do all those things, once he's had enough exposure to the students to understand their level of preparation. AG teaches the light cord over the long hose. I think there are good arguments on both sides of that question. He likes the old valve drill, but honestly, we never did a valve drill in the class with him; we handled failures, which is quite different. We did use 25/25 instead of 30/30, and I think, actually, that gas makes better sense in the range.

All the big things were the same. Good buoyancy control was a must; trim had to be controlled to where it didn't impact buoyancy or maneuverability. Problems have to be addressed in a calm, thoughtful and methodical fashion, and team resources have to be kept track of. Clear, unambiguous communication was critical. The basic equipment configuration is the same.

There are small differences, and anybody who has enough interest to read on the internet knows what some of them are. I don't think there was anything between the two instructors/classes that I couldn't adjust if I were to dive with a team from one camp or the other. The underlying principles and intellectual materials are the same.

**MartyC** · February 5th, 2008, 12:20 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by TDave)

This.

***Fiona*** · February 5th, 2008, 12:23 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by MartyC)

I think Dave meant he agreed with what Howard said.

Constantino · February 5th, 2008, 10:46 PM

What sort of deco is "taught" with 25/25 ?

Best,
Ricardo

LCF · February 6th, 2008, 04:59 AM

We did minimum deco, with a 10% credit for the 25% O2. (Like the 20% credit for 32%.) It is a no-deco class.

MonkSeal · February 6th, 2008, 10:41 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF)

AG teaches the light cord over the long hose.

GUE teaches the light cord over the long hose. If he doesn't teach the opposite than it's the same.

Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF)

We did minimum deco, with a 10% credit for the 25% O2. (Like the 20% credit for 32%.) It is a no-deco class.

I can agree that 25% of He in that range is beneficial but I'm not sure what's the benefit of 4% more O2 (comparing to 21/35) - 10% of credit means 5 to 10 min more to MDL in that range.

Philippe · February 6th, 2008, 02:10 PM

@ LFC

"He likes the old valve drill,...."

What do you mean with "old valve drill" ? Can please explain the differences to us?

February 4th, 2008, 05:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
Philippe(Offline) New Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 78	DIR Variations Hello guys! In my opinion DIR is a holistic philosophy with a couple of small variations. Now we have: 1. GI - DIR / WKPP - DIR (GI = George Irvine) 2. GUE - DIR 3. EKPP - DIR 4. AG - DIR (AG = Andrew Georgitsis) So what are the small differences? May be different batteries, gas mixes, underwear, dry suit modifications and so on. Lets work out that stuff ! :-)

February 4th, 2008, 11:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
Howard Payne(Offline) Strokey Dokily Doo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,204	Needs someone better qualified than me - but heres my take: I know Georgitsis uses 25/25 as an Ocean gas for the 30-40m range which seems very sensible to me as 30/30 is quite limiting in its depth range when you don't quite know which dive you'll be doing which is often the case with the challenging and rapidly changing conditions here in the UK. I suspect that to get hung up on minor details and differences is to miss the point? Any of these people will be damn fine divers with tons in common and I'm sure I'd be happy to share a dive with any of them assuming it's within my limits. DIR for me is so much more to do with the whole rather than getting caught up in minute details. Unfortunately it always seems to be the minute details that get picked over in excrutitaing agony on the internet? Respectfully, lets concentrate on the big picture eh? I just spent the most amazing 10 days in Mexico learning to cave dive with a truly great GUE Instructor - but in spite of plenty of detail - it was the great diving and superb company that made this trip great - not the minutae. __________________ The Foxturd Chimp

February 5th, 2008, 03:58 AM	#3 (permalink)
TDave(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lancaster, UK Posts: 94	Quote: (Originally Posted by Howard Payne) Needs someone better qualified than me - but heres my take: I know Georgitsis uses 25/25 as an Ocean gas for the 30-40m range which seems very sensible to me as 30/30 is quite limiting in its depth range when you don't quite know which dive you'll be doing which is often the case with the challenging and rapidly changing conditions here in the UK. I suspect that to get hung up on minor details and differences is to miss the point? Any of these people will be damn fine divers with tons in common and I'm sure I'd be happy to share a dive with any of them assuming it's within my limits. DIR for me is so much more to do with the whole rather than getting caught up in minute details. Unfortunately it always seems to be the minute details that get picked over in excrutitaing agony on the internet? Respectfully, lets concentrate on the big picture eh? I just spent the most amazing 10 days in Mexico learning to cave dive with a truly great GUE Instructor - but in spite of plenty of detail - it was the great diving and superb company that made this trip great - not the minutae. This. __________________ Dave Smith

February 5th, 2008, 04:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
LCF(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 623	I've taken Fundies and Rec Triox through GUE, and NAUI Helitrox from AG. There are definitely differences in training between the two agencies. GUE is much more restrictive about what instructors can do in their classes -- no air gun in Rec Triox, no removing masks, no fiddling with students' valves. AG can and will do all those things, once he's had enough exposure to the students to understand their level of preparation. AG teaches the light cord over the long hose. I think there are good arguments on both sides of that question. He likes the old valve drill, but honestly, we never did a valve drill in the class with him; we handled failures, which is quite different. We did use 25/25 instead of 30/30, and I think, actually, that gas makes better sense in the range. All the big things were the same. Good buoyancy control was a must; trim had to be controlled to where it didn't impact buoyancy or maneuverability. Problems have to be addressed in a calm, thoughtful and methodical fashion, and team resources have to be kept track of. Clear, unambiguous communication was critical. The basic equipment configuration is the same. There are small differences, and anybody who has enough interest to read on the internet knows what some of them are. I don't think there was anything between the two instructors/classes that I couldn't adjust if I were to dive with a team from one camp or the other. The underlying principles and intellectual materials are the same. __________________ check out www.divematrix.com "So, it's a good thing to always do the drills the same way . . . but in real life you need to act the right way, whatever that happens to be." LauNar

February 5th, 2008, 12:20 PM	#5 (permalink)
MartyC(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Goathland, N Yorks. Posts: 154	Quote: (Originally Posted by TDave) This. __________________ IF only I could think of something witty to say!

February 5th, 2008, 12:23 PM	#6 (permalink)
*Fiona*(Offline) Moderator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Up North Posts: 1,212	Quote: (Originally Posted by MartyC) I think Dave meant he agreed with what Howard said. __________________ Fiona Resistance was Futile Move Along YD GUE Member

February 5th, 2008, 10:46 PM	#7 (permalink)
Constantino(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Portugal Posts: 66	What sort of deco is "taught" with 25/25 ? Best, Ricardo

February 6th, 2008, 04:59 AM	#8 (permalink)
LCF(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 623	We did minimum deco, with a 10% credit for the 25% O2. (Like the 20% credit for 32%.) It is a no-deco class. __________________ check out www.divematrix.com "So, it's a good thing to always do the drills the same way . . . but in real life you need to act the right way, whatever that happens to be." LauNar

February 6th, 2008, 10:41 AM	#9 (permalink)
MonkSeal (Online) Old Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 479	Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF) AG teaches the light cord over the long hose. GUE teaches the light cord over the long hose. If he doesn't teach the opposite than it's the same. Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF) We did minimum deco, with a 10% credit for the 25% O2. (Like the 20% credit for 32%.) It is a no-deco class. I can agree that 25% of He in that range is beneficial but I'm not sure what's the benefit of 4% more O2 (comparing to 21/35) - 10% of credit means 5 to 10 min more to MDL in that range.

February 6th, 2008, 02:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
Philippe(Offline) New Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 78	@ LFC "He likes the old valve drill,...." What do you mean with "old valve drill" ? Can please explain the differences to us?