HMS Repulse Controversy Strikes Again

Lou · August 18th, 2007, 02:00 PM

It appears that Arrse have just found out about the penetration dives occurring on HMS Repulse, and in particular are furious as AG's expedition and the alleged profit he is making from the videos and stills.

It is an old topic in the diving world, but the anger and upset of the service men on this forum and thread is worth reading to see "the other side" of the argument.

A few familiar names getting taken in vain too!

British Army Rumour Service > > Forums > > The Serious Bit > > Current Affairs, News and Analysis > > HMS Repulse war dead on...a fridge magnet

graham_hk · August 18th, 2007, 03:12 PM

How sad! There are those that would have us not visit - but I fail to see the difference between diving a war grave and visiting any grave yard? I know its slightly different but my grandfather went onto beaches on D-day (he never talked about it so the details are sketchy) should the relations of his friends that died that day stop people from visiting the beach? Is this misguided flailing paying any more respect than AG's dive?

Graham

decoweenie · August 18th, 2007, 03:19 PM

It looks like they are more angry about the selling of DVD video.

*Rich Walker* · August 18th, 2007, 03:30 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by graham_hk)

How sad! There are those that would have us not visit - but I fail to see the difference between diving a war grave and visiting any grave yard? I know its slightly different but my grandfather went onto beaches on D-day (he never talked about it so the details are sketchy) should the relations of his friends that died that day stop people from visiting the beach? Is this misguided flailing paying any more respect than AG's dive?

Graham

Nothing wrong with visiting a graveyard or a war grave. However, digging up the graves and filming the the act for personal profit would be wrong, in my opinion. It is a generally accepted rule that you don't penetrate war graves.

The idea that "research" is being conducted here is somewhat suspect as well.

Rich

graham_hk · August 18th, 2007, 03:54 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rich Walker)

The idea that "research" is being conducted here is somewhat suspect as well.

Rich

Indeed.

Have a read of the link and you'll see what I mean.

Lou · August 18th, 2007, 07:26 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rich Walker)

The idea that "research" is being conducted here is somewhat suspect as well.

That particular justification is probably correctly scoffed at in this case - I guess the Force Z lot know quite well what happened that night, and the survivors could give more stories than an engine room, I'm sure.

However, not sure any more about the "war grave, no penetration" argument, apart from it giving at least a baseline to showing respect. I am coming round to a degree to the idea that most of the wrecks we dive have had fatalities associated with them, so I can see some hypocrisy in singling out war graves alone.

Mark Chase · August 20th, 2007, 08:11 AM

Said it before and ill say it again,

What makes these dead any more special than any other dead? The Thistlegorm is a war grave and most recreational divers who have visited that site have penetrated the so called grave. Or how bout the Dunraven EVERYONE penitrates that ship wreck. If you want some serious invasion what about the Salem Express. Hundreds of children died on that, (dived by 10,000s each year) tourist wreck.

The whole war grave thing is ridiculous. If I had to avoid diving / penetrating every ship where death had occurred it would wipe out 95% of my diving.

I see the POW as no more or less due respect than the Thistlegorm. Why it deserves special treatment i have no idea. Are the people who died on the Thistlegorm less important? Have their relatives said its OK?

Divers had better extract their heads from their backsides on this and form a united front or we will end up only being able to dive the Scylla and the Stangarth.

ATB

Mark Chase

Single Tank Numpty · August 20th, 2007, 09:09 AM

I've thought long and hard about whether to post on this or not. It is a recipe for disaster, and a situation that you probably can't win. Each person has a personal choice to make and somone that disagrees with me is totally within their right to.

Personally I think that if divers show due respect to human remains, then there shouldn't be an issue. It is similar to visiting a cemetry to pay your respects.

I believe that we should not be moving bones at all, either on purpose or by poor finning technique and lack of control.

I personally wouldn't take photos. But I can see that this could be done with respect and if the images are treated as such, say to show the scarifice that people took or remind people of the fact that wrecks aren't just big toys for us to play in and that people may have died in there.

However, if it is true that photos of human remains were on offer on the website, then I am disappointed in a guy that I have had a lot of respect for. There is no need for that.

But then again where do you draw the line???? Photos in a book about war OK?? Fridge magnet, probably not.

It's difficult. But I can see that the fridge magnet / mouse pad thing is going to upset people. And I don't think that we can blame them.

I personally am in awe of people that put themselves in harms way for their country. Their reaction is understandable when they feel that a fellow soldier / sailor that has died whilst doing so, has been treated badly.

For them to say that there should be no dives there is over the top, but again understandable I think, if you look at where they are coming from.

I believe that their reaction should be a reminder to us all about the respect that we should be showing.

No flames please, it is just a personal opinion.

lizardland · August 20th, 2007, 10:18 AM

I very rarely dive wrecks, I don't have much interest in them and I don't really understand the attraction of swimming round a scrapyard. For me, I would not want what is essentially a bunch of tourists swimming around the remains of my relatives, especially relatives that had given their lives in defence of said tourists.

The big difference between a wreck and a war cemetery is that in a cemetery the dead have the protection of six feet of earth. That is not the case in a wreck. Would you squeeze into an open tomb in Normandy with a video camera?

Like I said, wrecks have no interest for me and when someone's bones become a spectacle then I'm a bit uncomfortable with that. Where the dead have been removed (by manual means or nature) then I think preventing diving is a bit ridiculous in most circumstances.

Mark Chase · August 20th, 2007, 04:52 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

I very rarely dive wrecks, I don't have much interest in them and I don't really understand the attraction of swimming round a scrapyard. For me, I would not want what is essentially a bunch of tourists swimming around the remains of my relatives, especially relatives that had given their lives in defence of said tourists.

The big difference between a wreck and a war cemetery is that in a cemetery the dead have the protection of six feet of earth. That is not the case in a wreck. Would you squeeze into an open tomb in Normandy with a video camera?

Like I said, wrecks have no interest for me and when someone's bones become a spectacle then I'm a bit uncomfortable with that. Where the dead have been removed (by manual means or nature) then I think preventing diving is a bit ridiculous in most circumstances.

Many tourists go into tombs with bones on display. From the caves in Mexico to the pyramids in Egypt

Buddha's bones on display to public - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Photo: Bones

Perhaps Mr Bush is not the man to ask about this..

Hiding Geronimo's Bones

If they found human remains in a cave you dive would you stop diving it?

ATB

Mark Chase

August 18th, 2007, 02:00 PM	#1 (permalink)
Lou(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bucks Posts: 195	HMS Repulse Controversy Strikes Again It appears that Arrse have just found out about the penetration dives occurring on HMS Repulse, and in particular are furious as AG's expedition and the alleged profit he is making from the videos and stills. It is an old topic in the diving world, but the anger and upset of the service men on this forum and thread is worth reading to see "the other side" of the argument. A few familiar names getting taken in vain too! British Army Rumour Service > > Forums > > The Serious Bit > > Current Affairs, News and Analysis > > HMS Repulse war dead on...a fridge magnet

August 18th, 2007, 03:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
graham_hk(Offline) GUE instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: here, there and everywhere Posts: 780	How sad! There are those that would have us not visit - but I fail to see the difference between diving a war grave and visiting any grave yard? I know its slightly different but my grandfather went onto beaches on D-day (he never talked about it so the details are sketchy) should the relations of his friends that died that day stop people from visiting the beach? Is this misguided flailing paying any more respect than AG's dive? Graham __________________ DIN caps and plugs with free world wide postage: www.dustcap.halcyon-hk.com

August 18th, 2007, 03:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
Rich Walker(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sheffield Posts: 300	Quote: (Originally Posted by graham_hk) How sad! There are those that would have us not visit - but I fail to see the difference between diving a war grave and visiting any grave yard? I know its slightly different but my grandfather went onto beaches on D-day (he never talked about it so the details are sketchy) should the relations of his friends that died that day stop people from visiting the beach? Is this misguided flailing paying any more respect than AG's dive? Graham Nothing wrong with visiting a graveyard or a war grave. However, digging up the graves and filming the the act for personal profit would be wrong, in my opinion. It is a generally accepted rule that you don't penetrate war graves. The idea that "research" is being conducted here is somewhat suspect as well. Rich __________________ Education, Equipment, Experience GUE training with Rich Walker

August 18th, 2007, 03:54 PM	#5 (permalink)
graham_hk(Offline) GUE instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: here, there and everywhere Posts: 780	Quote: (Originally Posted by Rich Walker) The idea that "research" is being conducted here is somewhat suspect as well. Rich Indeed. Have a read of the link and you'll see what I mean. __________________ DIN caps and plugs with free world wide postage: www.dustcap.halcyon-hk.com

August 20th, 2007, 08:11 AM	#7 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 905	Said it before and ill say it again, What makes these dead any more special than any other dead? The Thistlegorm is a war grave and most recreational divers who have visited that site have penetrated the so called grave. Or how bout the Dunraven EVERYONE penitrates that ship wreck. If you want some serious invasion what about the Salem Express. Hundreds of children died on that, (dived by 10,000s each year) tourist wreck. The whole war grave thing is ridiculous. If I had to avoid diving / penetrating every ship where death had occurred it would wipe out 95% of my diving. I see the POW as no more or less due respect than the Thistlegorm. Why it deserves special treatment i have no idea. Are the people who died on the Thistlegorm less important? Have their relatives said its OK? Divers had better extract their heads from their backsides on this and form a united front or we will end up only being able to dive the Scylla and the Stangarth. ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration diver in the village

August 18th, 2007, 03:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
decoweenie(Offline) New Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: - Posts: 154	It looks like they are more angry about the selling of DVD video.

August 18th, 2007, 07:26 PM	#6 (permalink)
Lou(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bucks Posts: 195	Quote: (Originally Posted by Rich Walker) The idea that "research" is being conducted here is somewhat suspect as well. That particular justification is probably correctly scoffed at in this case - I guess the Force Z lot know quite well what happened that night, and the survivors could give more stories than an engine room, I'm sure. However, not sure any more about the "war grave, no penetration" argument, apart from it giving at least a baseline to showing respect. I am coming round to a degree to the idea that most of the wrecks we dive have had fatalities associated with them, so I can see some hypocrisy in singling out war graves alone.

August 20th, 2007, 09:09 AM	#8 (permalink)
Single Tank Numpty(Offline) New Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: As far away from Ginger people as possible Posts: 58	I've thought long and hard about whether to post on this or not. It is a recipe for disaster, and a situation that you probably can't win. Each person has a personal choice to make and somone that disagrees with me is totally within their right to. Personally I think that if divers show due respect to human remains, then there shouldn't be an issue. It is similar to visiting a cemetry to pay your respects. I believe that we should not be moving bones at all, either on purpose or by poor finning technique and lack of control. I personally wouldn't take photos. But I can see that this could be done with respect and if the images are treated as such, say to show the scarifice that people took or remind people of the fact that wrecks aren't just big toys for us to play in and that people may have died in there. However, if it is true that photos of human remains were on offer on the website, then I am disappointed in a guy that I have had a lot of respect for. There is no need for that. But then again where do you draw the line???? Photos in a book about war OK?? Fridge magnet, probably not. It's difficult. But I can see that the fridge magnet / mouse pad thing is going to upset people. And I don't think that we can blame them. I personally am in awe of people that put themselves in harms way for their country. Their reaction is understandable when they feel that a fellow soldier / sailor that has died whilst doing so, has been treated badly. For them to say that there should be no dives there is over the top, but again understandable I think, if you look at where they are coming from. I believe that their reaction should be a reminder to us all about the respect that we should be showing. No flames please, it is just a personal opinion. __________________ Rule number 7. Don't dive with anyone with seconds on their bottom timer. The only time that I count seconds in my head is when I'm making love with a beautiful woman . 17 is the furthest I've got so far. I firmly believe that it was the best 17 seconds of her life.

August 20th, 2007, 10:18 AM	#9 (permalink)
lizardland(Offline) LCS Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Evidently Chickentown Posts: 595	I very rarely dive wrecks, I don't have much interest in them and I don't really understand the attraction of swimming round a scrapyard. For me, I would not want what is essentially a bunch of tourists swimming around the remains of my relatives, especially relatives that had given their lives in defence of said tourists. The big difference between a wreck and a war cemetery is that in a cemetery the dead have the protection of six feet of earth. That is not the case in a wreck. Would you squeeze into an open tomb in Normandy with a video camera? Like I said, wrecks have no interest for me and when someone's bones become a spectacle then I'm a bit uncomfortable with that. Where the dead have been removed (by manual means or nature) then I think preventing diving is a bit ridiculous in most circumstances. __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk The Lot isn't the only place to dive: http://www.lulu.com/content/613554

August 20th, 2007, 04:52 PM	#10 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 905	Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) I very rarely dive wrecks, I don't have much interest in them and I don't really understand the attraction of swimming round a scrapyard. For me, I would not want what is essentially a bunch of tourists swimming around the remains of my relatives, especially relatives that had given their lives in defence of said tourists. The big difference between a wreck and a war cemetery is that in a cemetery the dead have the protection of six feet of earth. That is not the case in a wreck. Would you squeeze into an open tomb in Normandy with a video camera? Like I said, wrecks have no interest for me and when someone's bones become a spectacle then I'm a bit uncomfortable with that. Where the dead have been removed (by manual means or nature) then I think preventing diving is a bit ridiculous in most circumstances. Many tourists go into tombs with bones on display. From the caves in Mexico to the pyramids in Egypt Buddha's bones on display to public - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) Photo: Bones Perhaps Mr Bush is not the man to ask about this.. Hiding Geronimo's Bones If they found human remains in a cave you dive would you stop diving it? ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration diver in the village Last edited by Mark Chase; August 20th, 2007 at 04:59 PM.