Personal Locator Beacons

Paul Mc Nulty · January 12th, 2007, 09:32 PM

I'm setting up a petition.It is very important and I think many lives could be saved.Thank you.

Every year several divers get lost at sea in Ireland.The waters are cold and chances of survival are slim.If diving one should carry a dsmb among other survival equipment which can be very handy in finding the diver if he is close and the visibilty is good.If one is decompressing for a long period or if you ascend far from the boat or shore you may be out of visible,audible range.The sensible diver who dives in cold water or in boats far off shore should carry an alternative as well as whistles,dsmbs etc.The 406mhz with gps personal locator beacon is the best choice,It sends a unique coded signal which identifies you and/or your vessel with your coordinates on this planet to a satalite in space.This information is relayed to the search and rescue authorities in your location.It greatly improves your chances!

The newer devices out now are small and can be put into a dive canister to protect it from the pressure while diving with it.
These things are going to save a lot of lives if people start using them.

In Ireland plb's (personal locator beacons) have to be registered.They are only registered for the vessel you intend to use it on, personal ownership of these without resistering it with a vessel is not possible this is because the Marine Radio Affairs Unit of The Maritime Safety Directorate (MSD) which is run by The Department of Transport do not have the capibilty to Register this device for individuals as their system is outdated.If the system is updated many life's of divers and other people who use the water and do not own a vessel could purchase these.They should'nt be abused and it is very serious to do so incurring massive fines.But a registry will prevent this and less unidentified beacons will be ever used again.

Dive planning is paramount but this should make diving and other activitys safer.

If you are living in Ireland and you dive and or do other activities where a device like this is needed,Or you think that we should have this system to use and save our lives please write to:

John byrne,
Technical assistant,
Marine radio affairs,
Leeson lane,
Dublin 2

Or email: johnbyrne@transport.ie

John has been very helpful

g-west · January 14th, 2007, 12:39 AM

What would be the price of such device? We all hear a lot about horror like posted here: 4 divers lost in Red Sea

Some time ago somebody told me about radar reflective stripes (alloy?). Sorry I forgot who it was. Does anyone knows something about this marking?

Janos · January 14th, 2007, 11:55 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by g-west)

What would be the price of such device? We all hear a lot about horror like posted here: 4 divers lost in Red Sea

They exist and cost about £150 to £200. I think the point of the post above is to get the Irish legislation regarding their use changed. AFAIK there isn't a similar problem with the UK, is there?

Janos

PS - Radar refelctive tape can be bought in loads of places. Try a boat shop near you and ask for SOLAS reflective tape.

TobyFish · January 14th, 2007, 12:35 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

PS - Radar refelctive tape can be bought in loads of places. Try a boat shop near you and ask for SOLAS reflective tape.

I was looking at places to buy SOLAS last night because I too had the idea that it was radar reflective (I've heard it lots). But nowhere that sold it said anything about it being radar reflective... even the 3M site. (3M Personal Safety Products : SOLAS) they all talk about superior light reflection but not radar. You would think they would trumpet this as they actively promote it as a marine safety product.

so can anyone tell us whether this radar reflectiveness is an urban myth?

I bet Joe Hesketh has got a marine radar in his shed

Janos · January 14th, 2007, 12:49 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by TobyFish)

so can anyone tell us whether this radar reflectiveness is an urban myth?

I think it is, but am not sure. TBH, I think the RADAR reflectively is a bit irrelevant, as anything that small would be indistinguishable from wave noise.

I do have an inflatable SOLAS approved radar reflector, which is like a large DSMB with a radar-reflecting lattice inside. It's just a little too big for regular use but I might dig it out and see if I can tuck it behind the backplate.

Whatever you do. Don't attach tape to your hood though, as Gannets will mistake it for a fish as you surface, and dive bomb you and spear you when you're decompressing at 6m!

Janos

leash · January 14th, 2007, 02:40 PM

Isnt the large halcyon buoy equiped with SOLAS tape ?

Dangerous Dan · January 14th, 2007, 03:28 PM

I didn't think solas tape was radar reflective. But Space Blanket type material is and I cant remember where I read it but someone put it in a DSMB and it is quite easily picked up on radar.

Dan

TobyFish · January 14th, 2007, 09:11 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan)

I didn't think solas tape was radar reflective. But Space Blanket type material is and I cant remember where I read it but someone put it in a DSMB and it is quite easily picked up on radar.

Dan

CDs work well too. epecially tied to the top of an SMB

Janos · January 14th, 2007, 10:34 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by TobyFish)

CDs work well too. epecially tied to the top of an SMB

I hate to say this as it will come across as all aggressive but I really don't mean it to be

But do you have any evidence for this?

It's just that detecting anything close to the surface of the sea (including SMB height) is very hard. I'm not sure that our Rib shows up that well if we take the Radar reflector off.

Janos

GLOC · January 14th, 2007, 10:55 PM

And being as the reflectivness of a CD is down to the dye involved rather than any metal I doubt they would be radar reflective.

However, we do have some uber geeks where I work, so I will ask them tomorrow

January 12th, 2007, 09:32 PM	#1 (permalink)
Paul Mc Nulty(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ardmore,Co.Waterford,Ireland Posts: 46	Personal Locator Beacons I'm setting up a petition.It is very important and I think many lives could be saved.Thank you. Every year several divers get lost at sea in Ireland.The waters are cold and chances of survival are slim.If diving one should carry a dsmb among other survival equipment which can be very handy in finding the diver if he is close and the visibilty is good.If one is decompressing for a long period or if you ascend far from the boat or shore you may be out of visible,audible range.The sensible diver who dives in cold water or in boats far off shore should carry an alternative as well as whistles,dsmbs etc.The 406mhz with gps personal locator beacon is the best choice,It sends a unique coded signal which identifies you and/or your vessel with your coordinates on this planet to a satalite in space.This information is relayed to the search and rescue authorities in your location.It greatly improves your chances! The newer devices out now are small and can be put into a dive canister to protect it from the pressure while diving with it. These things are going to save a lot of lives if people start using them. In Ireland plb's (personal locator beacons) have to be registered.They are only registered for the vessel you intend to use it on, personal ownership of these without resistering it with a vessel is not possible this is because the Marine Radio Affairs Unit of The Maritime Safety Directorate (MSD) which is run by The Department of Transport do not have the capibilty to Register this device for individuals as their system is outdated.If the system is updated many life's of divers and other people who use the water and do not own a vessel could purchase these.They should'nt be abused and it is very serious to do so incurring massive fines.But a registry will prevent this and less unidentified beacons will be ever used again. Dive planning is paramount but this should make diving and other activitys safer. If you are living in Ireland and you dive and or do other activities where a device like this is needed,Or you think that we should have this system to use and save our lives please write to: John byrne, Technical assistant, Marine radio affairs, Leeson lane, Dublin 2 Or email: johnbyrne@transport.ie John has been very helpful

January 14th, 2007, 12:39 AM	#2 (permalink)
g-west(Offline) New Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Kiel / Germany Posts: 129	Can you show some pictures? What would be the price of such device? We all hear a lot about horror like posted here: 4 divers lost in Red Sea Some time ago somebody told me about radar reflective stripes (alloy?). Sorry I forgot who it was. Does anyone knows something about this marking? __________________ Gundolf http://www.divinggroup.de/wbb2/portal.php

January 14th, 2007, 11:55 AM	#3 (permalink)
Janos(Offline) "Two Sheds" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 400	Quote: (Originally Posted by g-west) What would be the price of such device? We all hear a lot about horror like posted here: 4 divers lost in Red Sea They exist and cost about £150 to £200. I think the point of the post above is to get the Irish legislation regarding their use changed. AFAIK there isn't a similar problem with the UK, is there? Janos PS - Radar refelctive tape can be bought in loads of places. Try a boat shop near you and ask for SOLAS reflective tape. __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed

January 14th, 2007, 12:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
TobyFish(Offline) Fine Upstanding Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Telford, UK Posts: 799	Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) PS - Radar refelctive tape can be bought in loads of places. Try a boat shop near you and ask for SOLAS reflective tape. I was looking at places to buy SOLAS last night because I too had the idea that it was radar reflective (I've heard it lots). But nowhere that sold it said anything about it being radar reflective... even the 3M site. (3M Personal Safety Products : SOLAS) they all talk about superior light reflection but not radar. You would think they would trumpet this as they actively promote it as a marine safety product. so can anyone tell us whether this radar reflectiveness is an urban myth? I bet Joe Hesketh has got a marine radar in his shed __________________ Rude-boy Volvo "Gangsta Rollin' in me nine-six-oh"

January 14th, 2007, 12:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
Janos(Offline) "Two Sheds" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 400	Quote: (Originally Posted by TobyFish) so can anyone tell us whether this radar reflectiveness is an urban myth? I think it is, but am not sure. TBH, I think the RADAR reflectively is a bit irrelevant, as anything that small would be indistinguishable from wave noise. I do have an inflatable SOLAS approved radar reflector, which is like a large DSMB with a radar-reflecting lattice inside. It's just a little too big for regular use but I might dig it out and see if I can tuck it behind the backplate. Whatever you do. Don't attach tape to your hood though, as Gannets will mistake it for a fish as you surface, and dive bomb you and spear you when you're decompressing at 6m! Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed

January 14th, 2007, 02:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
leash(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Mo i rana - Norway Posts: 48	Isnt the large halcyon buoy equiped with SOLAS tape ? __________________ Wiggo Andrè Larsen

January 14th, 2007, 03:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
Dangerous Dan(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Plymouth, UK and also West Yorkshire Posts: 35	I didn't think solas tape was radar reflective. But Space Blanket type material is and I cant remember where I read it but someone put it in a DSMB and it is quite easily picked up on radar. Dan

January 14th, 2007, 09:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
TobyFish(Offline) Fine Upstanding Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Telford, UK Posts: 799	Quote: (Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan) I didn't think solas tape was radar reflective. But Space Blanket type material is and I cant remember where I read it but someone put it in a DSMB and it is quite easily picked up on radar. Dan CDs work well too. epecially tied to the top of an SMB __________________ Rude-boy Volvo "Gangsta Rollin' in me nine-six-oh"

January 14th, 2007, 10:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
Janos(Offline) "Two Sheds" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 400	Quote: (Originally Posted by TobyFish) CDs work well too. epecially tied to the top of an SMB I hate to say this as it will come across as all aggressive but I really don't mean it to be But do you have any evidence for this? It's just that detecting anything close to the surface of the sea (including SMB height) is very hard. I'm not sure that our Rib shows up that well if we take the Radar reflector off. Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed

January 14th, 2007, 10:55 PM	#10 (permalink)
GLOC(Offline) Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Fleet, Hants Posts: 1,994	And being as the reflectivness of a CD is down to the dye involved rather than any metal I doubt they would be radar reflective. However, we do have some uber geeks where I work, so I will ask them tomorrow __________________ Gareth Images of Life Photography DIR Team Foxturd Travels Underwater and Further Afar If you don't have the time to do something right, where are you going to find the time to fix it? - Stephen King