what strobes for cave ??

dirdave · October 3rd, 2006, 01:35 AM

Hi all , I just got back from diving Kilsbys( a deep sinkhole ) in Mt Gambier , my aim was to get close up wide angle of the divers descending past me , I'm using a E900 (fuji) in an Ikelite housing and a single strobe set on TTL(DS-50)
I was trying to light up the face of the diver , but even using full power the water was just sucking up the available light ,

my question is what are other divers using in the way of strobe set up , and the settings , and also where does this rig sit (ala DIR) when not in use , here is a sample of the shots .

J South · October 3rd, 2006, 04:08 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by dirdave)

Hi all , I just got back from diving Kilsbys( a deep sinkhole ) in Mt Gambier , my aim was to get close up wide angle of the divers descending past me , I'm using a E900 (fuji) in an Ikelite housing and a single strobe set on TTL(DS-50)
I was trying to light up the face of the diver , but even using full power the water was just sucking up the available light ,

my question is what are other divers using in the way of strobe set up , and the settings , and also where does this rig sit (ala DIR) when not in use , here is a sample of the shots.

You'll need way more light to shoot true cave photography. Dual DS-200s would be a good start for the type of picture you have above with ambient light and would be adequate for very small cave. Try to shoot larger cave and you'll need anything from multiple slave strobes or HIDs to 50w HIDs or HMIs to even begin to have enough light in the background. There is no way to do cave photography without spending big, big money on lighting. If you want to illuminate the whole cave evenly you could easily spend $10K+.

Video lighting is a good alternative to strobes as it lets you focus and meter easily. The big downside is the higher color temperature. I've found that I prefer shooting with video lighting i.e. 50s on the camera so I can shoot faster and concentrate on composition and the dive itself. For this you'll want a primary and a second canister with an E/O. I typically use shutter priority set to the slowest speed that will freeze motion (usually 1/40th). Any surplus light reduces the aperture and increases the DOF. I often still end up using 1600 to get the exposure at f/2.8 and running everything through NoiseNinja to clean it up. With video lighting long exposures are a possibility but take time to set up.

You'll also want to shoot a wide lens. I'm using a Sigma 15mm fish and like it so far. The E900 wide angle adaptor looks like it is 24mm equivalent, so that might be a limiting factor for you as well.

There's not really any DIR place to stow a camera. I shift mine around depending on the context, using the butt, right chest, canister, or crotch d-ring. It's never out of the way and each spot has its advantages and disadvantages.

dirdave · October 3rd, 2006, 08:32 AM

thanks for the info , but a video light to simply light up a divers face

isn't that a bit extreme??
I really don't want to have the whole cave illuminated , the ambient light is good enough to set the mood , however in this shot , no matter how I tried the divers face wasn't able to be illuminated ?I did have the correct strobe position etc , just the water was sucking it up far too quick

any one else with Ideas ,

J South · October 3rd, 2006, 08:57 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by dirdave)

thanks for the info , but a video light to simply light up a divers face

isn't that a bit extreme??
I really don't want to have the whole cave illuminated , the ambient light is good enough to set the mood , however in this shot , no matter how I tried the divers face wasn't able to be illuminated ?I did have the correct strobe position etc , just the water was sucking it up far too quick

any one else with Ideas ,

Sorry, the thread title was about strobes for cave use so I thought that's the info you were looking for. If your strobe isn't powerful enough the obvious answer is a bigger strobe or strobes like a DS-125 or a DS-200. If you're not using the wide angle lens for your camera adding that will also make a huge difference by reducing the distance between your strobe and subject.

A small video light like an 18w with a video reflector would actually work fairly well if all you want to do is illuminate the diver's face/body and it will also double as a focus light. If you already have the HID all you would need is the video reflector with a base adapter and another arm.

What settings are you using on your camera and strobe?

Eirik Kjos · October 3rd, 2006, 11:48 AM

I think the reason for your problems with the ilumination of the face is the fact that your camera measure light in the entire frame. (It looks as if you use a compact camera) With sunlight or ambient light from the cave opening beeing such a strongly lit background you need to compensate by telling your camera to use spot metering (just measure lightning on the main subject) or with manual control just guesstimate how many stops you need to overexpose to get the main picture exposed correct. (If possible with your camera)

Most fully automatic cameras can be "tricked" to overexpose the background by moving in on the subject to eliminate the highly lit background, depressing the shutter halfway, and moving out to compose the picture.

Another idea is to not use the cave opening for background. But just position the diver over, prefarably, some white stone. Automatic exposure control will function better this way with less contrast.

*David Martin* · October 4th, 2006, 01:11 AM

J South,

I'm interested in the idea of using video lights for cameras. At the moment I have a camera but no strobes and one of the things I have considered is getting video lights since video lights could be used either later if/when I got a video setup and also as lights when diving with people who already have video.

How viable would say 50W lights be for use with a camera? At the moment I guess I'd be looking to take photos on a dive rather than going for a dive to take photos. I'd be talking about non-cave dives, but with low or little ambient light (eg UK south coast wrecks). I

David.

J South · October 6th, 2006, 03:36 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by David Martin)

J South,

I'm interested in the idea of using video lights for cameras. At the moment I have a camera but no strobes and one of the things I have considered is getting video lights since video lights could be used either later if/when I got a video setup and also as lights when diving with people who already have video.

How viable would say 50W lights be for use with a camera? At the moment I guess I'd be looking to take photos on a dive rather than going for a dive to take photos. I'd be talking about non-cave dives, but with low or little ambient light (eg UK south coast wrecks). I

David.

Dual 50Ws work very well. That is my preferred setup now after starting out with strobes. I found that they are far easier to use in a cave; the lack of any ambient light made it difficult to focus and frame the subject so I had ended up needing an HID on the camera to focus anyway and it made sense to step up to some more powerful lights and get rid of the strobes. Now composition is quicker and easier since it's WYSIWYG. More of my photos are coming out better and I can focus on the dive more than my camera. Mixing tech diving and photography is a dangerous proposition and the less time and concentration it takes to get the images I want the better, especially when the dive is not a dedicated photo shoot. I have relatively little experience with wreck photography (and not all that much in caves, really - only a year or so of taking photos) but I would assume that it would work just as well. I think strobes may have an edge in light quality, eg color temp etc., but still prefer the video lights for the reasons above. I use Halcyon 50s with a 13.5 E/O and another light as a primary. They may be more expensive than say dual DS-200s (I'm not really sure), but they are more versatile since they work for video as well.

*David Martin* · October 7th, 2006, 04:36 PM

Thanks for the reply. In the UK I think that retail prices for a pair of DS200's would be pretty similar to what a twin 50W HID would be (assuming that the current price is similar to the price that was advertised by UE in the past).

Certainly something to consider next year...

David

October 3rd, 2006, 01:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
dirdave(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Perth Western Australia Posts: 42	what strobes for cave ?? Hi all , I just got back from diving Kilsbys( a deep sinkhole ) in Mt Gambier , my aim was to get close up wide angle of the divers descending past me , I'm using a E900 (fuji) in an Ikelite housing and a single strobe set on TTL(DS-50) I was trying to light up the face of the diver , but even using full power the water was just sucking up the available light , my question is what are other divers using in the way of strobe set up , and the settings , and also where does this rig sit (ala DIR) when not in use , here is a sample of the shots . __________________ How Hard can it be ? Last edited by dirdave; October 3rd, 2006 at 01:37 AM. Reason: added photo :-)

October 3rd, 2006, 04:08 AM	#2 (permalink)
J South(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 4	Quote: (Originally Posted by dirdave) Hi all , I just got back from diving Kilsbys( a deep sinkhole ) in Mt Gambier , my aim was to get close up wide angle of the divers descending past me , I'm using a E900 (fuji) in an Ikelite housing and a single strobe set on TTL(DS-50) I was trying to light up the face of the diver , but even using full power the water was just sucking up the available light , my question is what are other divers using in the way of strobe set up , and the settings , and also where does this rig sit (ala DIR) when not in use , here is a sample of the shots. You'll need way more light to shoot true cave photography. Dual DS-200s would be a good start for the type of picture you have above with ambient light and would be adequate for very small cave. Try to shoot larger cave and you'll need anything from multiple slave strobes or HIDs to 50w HIDs or HMIs to even begin to have enough light in the background. There is no way to do cave photography without spending big, big money on lighting. If you want to illuminate the whole cave evenly you could easily spend $10K+. Video lighting is a good alternative to strobes as it lets you focus and meter easily. The big downside is the higher color temperature. I've found that I prefer shooting with video lighting i.e. 50s on the camera so I can shoot faster and concentrate on composition and the dive itself. For this you'll want a primary and a second canister with an E/O. I typically use shutter priority set to the slowest speed that will freeze motion (usually 1/40th). Any surplus light reduces the aperture and increases the DOF. I often still end up using 1600 to get the exposure at f/2.8 and running everything through NoiseNinja to clean it up. With video lighting long exposures are a possibility but take time to set up. You'll also want to shoot a wide lens. I'm using a Sigma 15mm fish and like it so far. The E900 wide angle adaptor looks like it is 24mm equivalent, so that might be a limiting factor for you as well. There's not really any DIR place to stow a camera. I shift mine around depending on the context, using the butt, right chest, canister, or crotch d-ring. It's never out of the way and each spot has its advantages and disadvantages. Last edited by J South; October 3rd, 2006 at 08:59 AM. Reason: Typo

October 3rd, 2006, 08:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
dirdave(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Perth Western Australia Posts: 42	Ok thanks for the info , but a video light to simply light up a divers face isn't that a bit extreme?? I really don't want to have the whole cave illuminated , the ambient light is good enough to set the mood , however in this shot , no matter how I tried the divers face wasn't able to be illuminated ?I did have the correct strobe position etc , just the water was sucking it up far too quick any one else with Ideas , __________________ How Hard can it be ?

October 3rd, 2006, 08:57 AM	#4 (permalink)
J South(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 4	Quote: (Originally Posted by dirdave) thanks for the info , but a video light to simply light up a divers face isn't that a bit extreme?? I really don't want to have the whole cave illuminated , the ambient light is good enough to set the mood , however in this shot , no matter how I tried the divers face wasn't able to be illuminated ?I did have the correct strobe position etc , just the water was sucking it up far too quick any one else with Ideas , Sorry, the thread title was about strobes for cave use so I thought that's the info you were looking for. If your strobe isn't powerful enough the obvious answer is a bigger strobe or strobes like a DS-125 or a DS-200. If you're not using the wide angle lens for your camera adding that will also make a huge difference by reducing the distance between your strobe and subject. A small video light like an 18w with a video reflector would actually work fairly well if all you want to do is illuminate the diver's face/body and it will also double as a focus light. If you already have the HID all you would need is the video reflector with a base adapter and another arm. What settings are you using on your camera and strobe? Last edited by J South; October 3rd, 2006 at 09:01 AM.

October 3rd, 2006, 11:48 AM	#5 (permalink)
Eirik Kjos(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Trondheim, Norway Posts: 8	I think the reason for your problems with the ilumination of the face is the fact that your camera measure light in the entire frame. (It looks as if you use a compact camera) With sunlight or ambient light from the cave opening beeing such a strongly lit background you need to compensate by telling your camera to use spot metering (just measure lightning on the main subject) or with manual control just guesstimate how many stops you need to overexpose to get the main picture exposed correct. (If possible with your camera) Most fully automatic cameras can be "tricked" to overexpose the background by moving in on the subject to eliminate the highly lit background, depressing the shutter halfway, and moving out to compose the picture. Another idea is to not use the cave opening for background. But just position the diver over, prefarably, some white stone. Automatic exposure control will function better this way with less contrast.

October 4th, 2006, 01:11 AM	#6 (permalink)
David Martin(Offline) Instructor candidate Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, E11 Posts: 419	J South, I'm interested in the idea of using video lights for cameras. At the moment I have a camera but no strobes and one of the things I have considered is getting video lights since video lights could be used either later if/when I got a video setup and also as lights when diving with people who already have video. How viable would say 50W lights be for use with a camera? At the moment I guess I'd be looking to take photos on a dive rather than going for a dive to take photos. I'd be talking about non-cave dives, but with low or little ambient light (eg UK south coast wrecks). I David.

October 6th, 2006, 03:36 AM	#7 (permalink)
J South(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 4	Quote: (Originally Posted by David Martin) J South, I'm interested in the idea of using video lights for cameras. At the moment I have a camera but no strobes and one of the things I have considered is getting video lights since video lights could be used either later if/when I got a video setup and also as lights when diving with people who already have video. How viable would say 50W lights be for use with a camera? At the moment I guess I'd be looking to take photos on a dive rather than going for a dive to take photos. I'd be talking about non-cave dives, but with low or little ambient light (eg UK south coast wrecks). I David. Dual 50Ws work very well. That is my preferred setup now after starting out with strobes. I found that they are far easier to use in a cave; the lack of any ambient light made it difficult to focus and frame the subject so I had ended up needing an HID on the camera to focus anyway and it made sense to step up to some more powerful lights and get rid of the strobes. Now composition is quicker and easier since it's WYSIWYG. More of my photos are coming out better and I can focus on the dive more than my camera. Mixing tech diving and photography is a dangerous proposition and the less time and concentration it takes to get the images I want the better, especially when the dive is not a dedicated photo shoot. I have relatively little experience with wreck photography (and not all that much in caves, really - only a year or so of taking photos) but I would assume that it would work just as well. I think strobes may have an edge in light quality, eg color temp etc., but still prefer the video lights for the reasons above. I use Halcyon 50s with a 13.5 E/O and another light as a primary. They may be more expensive than say dual DS-200s (I'm not really sure), but they are more versatile since they work for video as well.

October 7th, 2006, 04:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
David Martin(Offline) Instructor candidate Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, E11 Posts: 419	Thanks for the reply. In the UK I think that retail prices for a pair of DS200's would be pretty similar to what a twin 50W HID would be (assuming that the current price is similar to the price that was advertised by UE in the past). Certainly something to consider next year... David