Sterny(Offline)

I'm currently more keen on looking at and learning about underwater life than wrecks. Wanting to be competent to DIR-F standard in twins and begin exploring more tech stuff doesn't preclude enjoying a tropical reef at 7m too, when you get the chance! The UK does have plenty of interesting sealife underwater and some cracking shallow dives, but my UK diving also seems to focus on wrecks quite a lot. There are loads of good ones within easy reach, so I've gradually been getting a bit more into them too.

I'm a little bored with swimming around the outsides, but I've had no training (or mates show me) how to get into them safely. It strikes me as something not do be done unprepared. So, as a relative newbie, I thought I'd see what people on here think.

The one person I've mentioned it to (who's welcome to own up to it if she likes, as her suggestions have been exceptionally well founded and helpful!!) suggested asking Rich or Andy to show me (after Fundies is out of the way) and take me on a dive or two. Sounds like a good idea. It seems DIR evolved from a cave background, and cave diving has yet to appeal to me even slightly (), but is there such a thing as a DIR approach to wreck diving, and where does it fit in the scheme of things?

JohnKendall(Offline)

This is a tricky one. Cave techniques will help some, but that's not all there is to it. I think basically that you need to be comfortable in the water, Understand Line techniques, and be able to maintain buoyancy/trim if anything better than you would in a cave. Having said that, I've only done probably 2 dives ever that I'd consider real wreck penetrations. I've done a lot of dives where the wreck is fairly broken and so there are lots of holes for getting into or out of.

None of that probably helps you though. I personally think that the cave courses are a very good thing for those kinds of skills.

HTH
J

daz(Offline)

I think it depends what you want to do and where you are going to go.

I'm fairly certain that Rich or Andy could advise and help if you want to look at wreck penetration but at what cost to their time and effort? (I can't see how they could do this other than as a proper course)

Also the amount of training and knowledge required would be a lot more for someone who has completed DIR-F than say someone who has completed Tech-1.

Technically it could be argued that it was diving beyond certification levels. The implications to life insurance cover in the event of an accident should not be overlooked.

So that said, what are the options? Well you could look at DIR-F, then Tech1, the amount of additional knowledge/training (if any) over and above tech1 to do wreck penetration should not be massive especially if you have tech1 level skills squared away, I would imagine.

Alternatively, you could consider doing a full overhead/wreck course under a different agency after DIR-F. There are a number of Instructors out there who can and will teach other agency courses in a DIR style.

Daz

Sterny(Offline)

Hi Daz! Thanks for your reply - that's very much the sort of thing I'd like to look at. I do believe in getting properly trained for the diving you do (as you probably realise!), so perhaps taking things up to Tech 1 with GUE and adding to that (before/after/alongside) some specific wreck penetration training from another organisation (selecting the right instructor) might be a good path longer term.

Mainly I recognise I just need to go diving a lot more before I worry about any more courses Summer's coming after all! Time to go have some fun.

My short term read is that while largely transferrable to wreck penetration diving (and sharing a lot in common with it, and therefore heartily worth learning), I shouldn't be too fixated on getting all the training for the sorts of diving I'd like to be able to do from GUE's Tech or Cave courses if the wreck bits aren't their main focus. Nor need they be. Equally if they do the job of training me for the wreck environments I find myself wanting to dive, they could be spot on. I'll wait and see.

Maybe this is all a bit too hypothetical. For now I'll focus on Fundies and getting solid at that set of skills first, and worry about the next step afterwards

What prompted this is that I was feeling a bit lukewarm about doing a wreck speciality with my first recreational training agency, and if anyone likes the courses from another agency (NAUI? 5thD-x? IANTD? TDI? PSA? - oh god, I'll probably start off a right fuss if I'm not careful), I'd love to hear what course you did, how compatible it was with DIR and why you liked it! However, please let's not start another interagency scrum over this - I'd much rather we were all just friends!

daz(Offline)

I think you could do it fully within the realms of GUE if you want. But I do think tech1 will be the foundation and maybe even offer all you need.

I just don't think that DIR-F, some help, advice and a few dives even with Andy and Rich will get you to the point where you can do beyond the light zone wreck penetration.

To be honest, I don't know either I'm actually interested how the wreck training fits into the GUE training courses. I can see how some of the cave stuff could transfer but what about the specifics of wreck diving?

Rich, Andy Comments?

Oh I think it's very useful to plan ahead if possible, if you have a goal to aim for it at least gives you some ideas of what the right steps are to get there.

I don't go in for agency bashing but I personally would not consider a wreck speciality from PADI over say a Technical wreck course from TDI/IANTD/A.N.OTHER.AGENCY

It's like comparing apples and oranges. They are both aiming for different areas of the market.

I'm part way through a overhead course at the moment, I'll let you know what I think once it's done. Obviously if he fails me then it's crap and he's a crap instructor

Daz

maccajim(Offline)

From what i have heard if you want to penetrate wrecks most GUe instructors say do cave1. It will get your line skills up to grade and get used to no ambient light environs, touch contact and 1/3 gas planning.

At the moment you say you have no interest in caves i was the same as you until i did my first few cave dives, it is really addictive you get a bit of an adrelanine rush compared to normal diving. We had to creep under this tiny gap only half a metre high it then opens up into a massive bowl you could surface and breath inside the cave checking out the ceiling with our hids was awesome.

Kevrumbo(Offline)

Here's a Course Outline and a Teammate's Report of the inaugural NAUI Wreck Penetration Level 1 Class that I completed last month, with Andrew Georgitsis:
http://www.breakthrudiving.com/classes/outlines/wreck1.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=120774

Chris B(Offline)

I was about to add that 'former' GUE training director Andrew Georgitsis, who is more wreck than cave oriented runs a wreck specific training course based solidly on DIR principals. The fact that it is now recognized by a well known training agency (NAUI) should make your insurance people happy and you wont find any conflict with your DIR/GUE training.

Down side is he lives in the US

Although GUE was conceived to train cave divers, I am very surprised that they haven't yet tweaked one of their courses (Cave or Tec 1) to make a custom wreck course, as I would imagine the majority of their patrons will be diving a lot more more wreck than cave.

Best

Chris B

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Mark Chase(Offline)

First I have to point out that i haven't done the DIR Cave course and I have only dived a hand full of short caves so I don't have much to compare with.


That said

I found that a lot of the wreck penetration information i could get my hands on was very similar to the cave stuff. Obviously finning techniques, buoyancy, gas planning, redundant lighting and 0 viz skills are the same but I feel that wrecks present some fairly unique hazards not obviously apparent in cave diving. Personally I found that some cave techniques for laying line were not ideal but apart from that the core skills are the same.

Of all the wrecks I have dived I thought the best place to learn the basics was the Zenobia in Cyprus. Being a natural wreck it has all the hazards of debris, cables dangling every where and large glazed windows which look like exit points but arnt. You could do any level of penetration you wanted to on this wreck from easy peasy, big but dark to scare the crap out of you level.

Despite the Mediterranean conditions some of the penetrations are low viz hazards on OC. The rusticals drop like fine silt when the OC bubbles hit them and even with good finning technique and buoyancy you can find your exit is in very low viz.

Andyp and I found the engine room and went in on CCR and just ascending and venting gas to relieve the counter lungs brought clouds of rust particles down on us.

In the UK I have only found one wreck which was even close in terms of long penetration dives. Its a big freighter out of Dover we called the Big Log Wreck as that was its cargo. We managed to get 75m (then ran out of line) into that one but most of the UK wrecks I have dived have involved no more than 20-30m of penetration before you hit a wall of silt. However the Solsett isnt bad but a little deep for training.

I know some instructors are using the man made reef as a training ground but this is a sterile wreck so it docent really prep air you for the chaos of the real thing. Izzi used to use the Hood before diving was banned and i remember thinking that would be good. If any one is aware of an instructor doing courses on a good penetration dive in the UK Id like to here about it.

The biggest difference between a good wreck penetration diver and a bad one like me is an understanding of the construction of ships. Some of the people I dive with seem to know exactly where they are on a wreck at all times and even when inside they know which way is out and how to find alternative exits. I haven't got a clue so I am totally reliant on line laying and a bred crumb trail of strobes at key points. If a wreck should collapse behind me I would be reliant on guess work to get out.

I don't know how DIR are with using marker strobes or glow sticks to lay breadcrumb trails in wrecks but with the 1000s' of opportunities there are on a wreck to cut your guide line I would avoid serious penetration without them.

The divers I dive trimix with we lay line on every wreck dive, inside and outside the wreck to ensure a return to the deco station. Cut line is a common problem occurring several times each year to someone in the team.

If you want a DIR sympathetic instructor to teach you advanced wreck I would sugest Izzi as a good start in the UK.


ATB

Mark Chase

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The only DIR Inspiration diver in the village

Richard Lundgren(Offline)

In my opinion one of the mayor problems involved with teaching wreck penetration is that you as an Instructor always need to have reasonable access to all of your students at all time. Wrecks that fulfill the requirement of presenting a safe teaching environment are not impossible to find but they do not grow on trees.

A wreck penetration class do need to be taught during a wreck dive, can’t really simulate this on a reef J There are several similarities between cave and wreck diving but also differences that make a wreck penetration course valid, especially for those not pursuing or having interest in cave diving.

Take care,
Richard Lundgren