Rec TriOx - Much activity?

BarryNL · March 5th, 2008, 10:48 AM

I was thinking of doing a recreational trimix course at some point this year - just enough to stick some helium in my tanks for North Sea diving and I saw GUE now has a course. But there only seems to be a couple of courses in the planning on the entire globe.

Can we expect to see this one widely available in the near future, or is it going to be a while before there's much chance of getting on a course?

*JohnKendall* · March 5th, 2008, 10:51 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by BarryNL)

I was thinking of doing a recreational trimix course at some point this year - just enough to stick some helium in my tanks for North Sea diving and I saw GUE now has a course. But there only seems to be a couple of courses in the planning on the entire globe.

Can we expect to see this one widely available in the near future, or is it going to be a while before there's much chance of getting on a course?

Hiya,

The Rec Triox course is going through a complete re-write at the moment. I can't give a date for when it's ready, but watch this space.

thanks

John

Keiron · March 5th, 2008, 11:33 AM

Let's hope it doesn't take as long as the OW course, hey?

**Howard Payne** · March 5th, 2008, 02:23 PM

I really hope GUE takes this opportunity to revamp the syllabus a bit.

It would be nice to see Rec Triox replaced with something along the lines of the IANTD Adv Rec Trimix course which I reckon was pretty much inspired by GUE's pioneering use of Trimix for people just starting out in deco diving anyway.

A course like this offering people the use of weak Trimix with a small amount of deco (say 15-20min) perhaps limited by using by a single AL40 in the 30-40m range, maybe using 25/25, would be a really useful and gentle introduction for people and I think as a course it would have a good take up.

Tech 1 could then become a next step, 2 deco gas normoxic Trimix course for the 40-60m range - in line with other agencies and Tech 2 could remain pretty much where it is now.

For a lot of people Tech 1 is a huge jump from the diving they are doing at a Fundies level and it would provide a more gentle and logical progression.

I know that Jarrod has very real concerns that people either have the skills for deco diving or they don't and that he doesn't want any half measures.

By the same token - the possibility for getting into huge trouble in the 30ish meter range with a clear limit on the amount of permissible deco is not huge in my humble opinion.

The alternative at the moment is that people are doing small deco dives prior to Tech 1 on the worst possible gas with no training as they start to build on their Fundies skills on the way to Tech 1. I know a number of people in this boat at the moment who are crying out for some intermediate training along the way.

30-40m diving in the UK and I'm sure in other parts of the world as well can be a breeze or extremely demanding and difficult and that can be the same dive on two different days.

Just my ten cents worth

rjack · March 5th, 2008, 06:03 PM

Personally it seems like you folks over there really push the Tech1 limits (timewise and for only having 50%). My perception could be all wrong though. Tech1 was explained to me in my course (3 yrs ago) that its supposed to be a course opening the 30 to 45m range with one deco gas, 25-30 mins max deco - AKA intro deco diving.

I agree that there needs to be a better stepping stone between min deco 30m dives on 32% and Tech1 deco dives to 40+m. And there also needs to be a stepping stone from Tech1 to Tech2. Not all of us can go from no bottle to one bottle deco dives or one bottle to 3 bottle deco dives in 5 days.

limeyx · March 5th, 2008, 06:17 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack)

I agree that there needs to be a better stepping stone between min deco 30m dives on 32% and Tech1 deco dives to 40+m. And there also needs to be a stepping stone from Tech1 to Tech2. Not all of us can go from no bottle to one bottle deco dives or one bottle to 3 bottle deco dives in 5 days.

yes, the stepping stones (as noted elsewhere) seem like a decent idea.

I am guessing the "clarification" of the 30/30 MOD to 100 feet really makes the triox class of limited usefulness.

However, if you are going to use triox as a stepping stone to T1, then it probably needs to be run closer to the same way as T1 with same attention to failures, use of airgun blah blah blah, not in the same way as DIR-F
.

Retardboy · March 5th, 2008, 06:29 PM

My impression is that within the GUE/DIR mindset there is no middleway. Decodiving is serious business and a far leap from what is commonly known as "recreational" diving, something Liew made very clear during our T1. I guess this may be part of the reason why they have no tech-light course. IMHO it is important to remember that the T1 course teaches the diver what GUE consider the most basic and critical theory and skills in order to go and gain experience on your own. As said, if staying within the course limits, your dives ARE already limited regarding depth/deco, because of the fact that you may have very little experience.

rjack · March 5th, 2008, 06:56 PM

At least around here there's a huge difference between 30m and 40m. E.g. you typically have a little ambient light at 30m and zero at 40m. In other parts of the world the transition from 30m to 35 or 40m is a much more gradual envionmental change. Thus the need for a "stepping stone" course seems to be location specific.

BTW its quite possible to have a helium transition course using gases within min deco limits with depth limits around 35m. I would rather see the training council recognize the uselessness of 30/30 and fix the whole scheme vs. just tweak the edges of the gas/course progression.

**Howard Payne** · March 5th, 2008, 07:01 PM

Deco diving is a serious business and I believe that GUE treat it with the right degree of seriousness without wishing to draw comparisons with other agencies

The reality however is that people don't suddenly go from doing recreational profiles to full on Trimix accellerated deco dives as a result of one five day Tech 1 course.

For most people in my experience, me included, Tech 1 is a major milestone in their tech deco diving career, but that doesn't mean that they don't gradually increase their limits and capacity both before and after the course. For me it is absolutely right for people to gradually gain experience "organically" in this way.

I'm simply saying that something that bridges what I see as being a huge jump between Fundies and Tech1 that gives people the necessary skills and safe protocols to start slowly has to be better than people "fumbling around in the dark" on their own.

If we believe in Primacy - then lets get people on the right track from the word go and have them progressing at a sensible rate and gaining experience rather than trying to climb Mount Everest in one go.

I believe passionately in GUE's training and its philosophy and that on some things there is no compromise - do it right or don't do it at all. But my experience in the real world is that peoples diving careers progress gradually and not in an all or nothing way which is effectively what Tech1 makes them do.

I believe that providing an intermediate course would only enhance peoples safety and learning rather than putting them at risk.

The reality right now is that for many people - their first steps into deco diving when they have the least comfort, skills and experience is on weak Nitrox. With the lack of comfort that this inevetably brings including CO2 induced narcosis - I can't help but think these people would be the very ones who would benefit most from something like 25/25 to help them make these first steps.

It would be an irony if people started turning to courses like IANTD's Adv Rec Trimix course to help them make this progression because the very agnecy that started this sensible trend does not provide something similar within its own traning programme?

Respect to you all

*JohnKendall* · March 5th, 2008, 07:05 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack)

uselessness of 30/30

I'd like to pick you up on this. 30/30 is a very useful gas in the 20-30m range. Having a gas with a much lower density can be a big help on some dives, particularly if you are having to work hard, or it's very cold etc. Reducing the gas density will help reduce CO2 buildup and hence reduce CO2 toxicity/narcosis, as well as helping lower PO2 a little (and keep you further from risk on dives where the additional environmental concerns will load the odds)

The fact it doesn't give any further depth range does not make it useless.

Thanks

John

March 5th, 2008, 10:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
BarryNL(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Netherlands Posts: 51	I was thinking of doing a recreational trimix course at some point this year - just enough to stick some helium in my tanks for North Sea diving and I saw GUE now has a course. But there only seems to be a couple of courses in the planning on the entire globe. Can we expect to see this one widely available in the near future, or is it going to be a while before there's much chance of getting on a course? __________________ Experience is something you get just after you needed it.

March 5th, 2008, 10:51 AM	#2 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,446	Quote: (Originally Posted by BarryNL) I was thinking of doing a recreational trimix course at some point this year - just enough to stick some helium in my tanks for North Sea diving and I saw GUE now has a course. But there only seems to be a couple of courses in the planning on the entire globe. Can we expect to see this one widely available in the near future, or is it going to be a while before there's much chance of getting on a course? Hiya, The Rec Triox course is going through a complete re-write at the moment. I can't give a date for when it's ready, but watch this space. thanks John __________________ John Kendall http://www.amphibian-productions.com/diving GUE Instruction, Santi, Zeuxo and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Shop

March 5th, 2008, 02:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
Howard Payne (Online) The Voices And The Becks Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,900	I really hope GUE takes this opportunity to revamp the syllabus a bit. It would be nice to see Rec Triox replaced with something along the lines of the IANTD Adv Rec Trimix course which I reckon was pretty much inspired by GUE's pioneering use of Trimix for people just starting out in deco diving anyway. A course like this offering people the use of weak Trimix with a small amount of deco (say 15-20min) perhaps limited by using by a single AL40 in the 30-40m range, maybe using 25/25, would be a really useful and gentle introduction for people and I think as a course it would have a good take up. Tech 1 could then become a next step, 2 deco gas normoxic Trimix course for the 40-60m range - in line with other agencies and Tech 2 could remain pretty much where it is now. For a lot of people Tech 1 is a huge jump from the diving they are doing at a Fundies level and it would provide a more gentle and logical progression. I know that Jarrod has very real concerns that people either have the skills for deco diving or they don't and that he doesn't want any half measures. By the same token - the possibility for getting into huge trouble in the 30ish meter range with a clear limit on the amount of permissible deco is not huge in my humble opinion. The alternative at the moment is that people are doing small deco dives prior to Tech 1 on the worst possible gas with no training as they start to build on their Fundies skills on the way to Tech 1. I know a number of people in this boat at the moment who are crying out for some intermediate training along the way. 30-40m diving in the UK and I'm sure in other parts of the world as well can be a breeze or extremely demanding and difficult and that can be the same dive on two different days. Just my ten cents worth __________________ Eastbourne Sub-Aqua Club 0513 Nitrox & Trimix, Club Boat, Plenty of Good Value Diving, Regular Club Trips & Holidays, Rec & Tech Training, GUE / Hogarthian Friendly Come Try Us!

March 5th, 2008, 06:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
limeyx(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 809	Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack) I agree that there needs to be a better stepping stone between min deco 30m dives on 32% and Tech1 deco dives to 40+m. And there also needs to be a stepping stone from Tech1 to Tech2. Not all of us can go from no bottle to one bottle deco dives or one bottle to 3 bottle deco dives in 5 days. yes, the stepping stones (as noted elsewhere) seem like a decent idea. I am guessing the "clarification" of the 30/30 MOD to 100 feet really makes the triox class of limited usefulness. However, if you are going to use triox as a stepping stone to T1, then it probably needs to be run closer to the same way as T1 with same attention to failures, use of airgun blah blah blah, not in the same way as DIR-F . __________________ my divelog: http://www.mydivinglife.com/limeyx

March 5th, 2008, 07:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
Howard Payne (Online) The Voices And The Becks Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,900	Deco diving is a serious business and I believe that GUE treat it with the right degree of seriousness without wishing to draw comparisons with other agencies The reality however is that people don't suddenly go from doing recreational profiles to full on Trimix accellerated deco dives as a result of one five day Tech 1 course. For most people in my experience, me included, Tech 1 is a major milestone in their tech deco diving career, but that doesn't mean that they don't gradually increase their limits and capacity both before and after the course. For me it is absolutely right for people to gradually gain experience "organically" in this way. I'm simply saying that something that bridges what I see as being a huge jump between Fundies and Tech1 that gives people the necessary skills and safe protocols to start slowly has to be better than people "fumbling around in the dark" on their own. If we believe in Primacy - then lets get people on the right track from the word go and have them progressing at a sensible rate and gaining experience rather than trying to climb Mount Everest in one go. I believe passionately in GUE's training and its philosophy and that on some things there is no compromise - do it right or don't do it at all. But my experience in the real world is that peoples diving careers progress gradually and not in an all or nothing way which is effectively what Tech1 makes them do. I believe that providing an intermediate course would only enhance peoples safety and learning rather than putting them at risk. The reality right now is that for many people - their first steps into deco diving when they have the least comfort, skills and experience is on weak Nitrox. With the lack of comfort that this inevetably brings including CO2 induced narcosis - I can't help but think these people would be the very ones who would benefit most from something like 25/25 to help them make these first steps. It would be an irony if people started turning to courses like IANTD's Adv Rec Trimix course to help them make this progression because the very agnecy that started this sensible trend does not provide something similar within its own traning programme? Respect to you all __________________ Eastbourne Sub-Aqua Club 0513 Nitrox & Trimix, Club Boat, Plenty of Good Value Diving, Regular Club Trips & Holidays, Rec & Tech Training, GUE / Hogarthian Friendly Come Try Us!

March 5th, 2008, 11:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
Keiron(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Chester, UK Posts: 129	Let's hope it doesn't take as long as the OW course, hey?

March 5th, 2008, 06:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
rjack(Offline) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 976	Personally it seems like you folks over there really push the Tech1 limits (timewise and for only having 50%). My perception could be all wrong though. Tech1 was explained to me in my course (3 yrs ago) that its supposed to be a course opening the 30 to 45m range with one deco gas, 25-30 mins max deco - AKA intro deco diving. I agree that there needs to be a better stepping stone between min deco 30m dives on 32% and Tech1 deco dives to 40+m. And there also needs to be a stepping stone from Tech1 to Tech2. Not all of us can go from no bottle to one bottle deco dives or one bottle to 3 bottle deco dives in 5 days.

March 5th, 2008, 06:29 PM	#7 (permalink)
Retardboy(Offline) New Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Norway/Trondheim Posts: 48	My impression is that within the GUE/DIR mindset there is no middleway. Decodiving is serious business and a far leap from what is commonly known as "recreational" diving, something Liew made very clear during our T1. I guess this may be part of the reason why they have no tech-light course. IMHO it is important to remember that the T1 course teaches the diver what GUE consider the most basic and critical theory and skills in order to go and gain experience on your own. As said, if staying within the course limits, your dives ARE already limited regarding depth/deco, because of the fact that you may have very little experience.

March 5th, 2008, 06:56 PM	#8 (permalink)
rjack(Offline) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 976	At least around here there's a huge difference between 30m and 40m. E.g. you typically have a little ambient light at 30m and zero at 40m. In other parts of the world the transition from 30m to 35 or 40m is a much more gradual envionmental change. Thus the need for a "stepping stone" course seems to be location specific. BTW its quite possible to have a helium transition course using gases within min deco limits with depth limits around 35m. I would rather see the training council recognize the uselessness of 30/30 and fix the whole scheme vs. just tweak the edges of the gas/course progression.

March 5th, 2008, 07:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,446	Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack) uselessness of 30/30 I'd like to pick you up on this. 30/30 is a very useful gas in the 20-30m range. Having a gas with a much lower density can be a big help on some dives, particularly if you are having to work hard, or it's very cold etc. Reducing the gas density will help reduce CO2 buildup and hence reduce CO2 toxicity/narcosis, as well as helping lower PO2 a little (and keep you further from risk on dives where the additional environmental concerns will load the odds) The fact it doesn't give any further depth range does not make it useless. Thanks John __________________ John Kendall http://www.amphibian-productions.com/diving GUE Instruction, Santi, Zeuxo and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Shop