Protec Explorer/Santi Undersuit - Weighting Issues

JtM · July 18th, 2006, 01:11 PM

Ok, the background...

Up to now I've been diving a cordura membrane suit with a weezle undersuit, no major problems...

I recently treated myself to a protec explorer drysuit, lovely suit, more of a faff to get into than my rear entry suit but there you go. My first issues were getting cold in the suit, down to reasons most of us already know about - the cut of the suit minimises the amount of air the weezle can hold so you gets cold...

So I then treated myself to a Santi undersuit, got it a few weeks back, top product, very well made, 400g - pretty bulky/heavy but again, there you go...

I managed to do a weight check on saturday as I'm off to plymouth on thursday for 3 days hardboat diving and wanted to use my new kit. I was pretty gutted to find;

1. I needed 4kg of additional lead on top of what I normally use in salt water! Bearing in mind the weight check was at the local quarry! I also couldn't hold a stop at 6m, so I'm guessing I'll be needed 6KG additonal weight!

2. The bulk of the undersuit, in conjunction with the fact the explorer is slightly bulkier at the front due to the zip also, meant that shutdowns are actually harder than they are in my standard membrane/weezle...

Needless to say I'm a bit gutted, I'll be using my old suit/weezle for diving at the weekend.

Anyway, what I'm really after is what sort of weight people are carrying for twin 12's in conjunction with a 400g undersuit?

I'm using ECS 12's, stainless backplate (3kg) and a 3.5kg backplate weight. I'm guessing I'm going to need about 6kg on top of this. Any ideas where I'm going to put this? I really don't want to go back to a weight belt - but sticking 6kg extra on my kit is going to be a nightmare!

Any thoughts/advice appreciated!?

Ta.

Tricky · July 18th, 2006, 01:27 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JtM)

2. The bulk of the undersuit, in conjunction with the fact the explorer is slightly bulkier at the front due to the zip also, meant that shutdowns are actually harder than they are in my standard membrane/weezle...

I thought the same thing when I first started diving a front-entry drysuit. I think the problem was a combination of not enough air in the suit and having the waist belt too tight.

Quote:

I'm using ECS 12's, stainless backplate (3kg) and a 3.5kg backplate weight. I'm guessing I'm going to need about 6kg on top of this. Any ideas where I'm going to put this? I really don't want to go back to a weight belt - but sticking 6kg extra on my kit is going to be a nightmare!

I need 8kg of weight (additional to the backplate). I have this as a 3kg v-weight, a 3kg p-weight, a 1kg tail weight and a 1kg block on the waist belt next to the light cannister. Last weekend I dived without the tail weight with no noticable effect on my trim so I need to add another 1kg somewhere else on my kit. I can't go bigger with the v- or p-weight so I've been considering a 6mm backplate.

LauNar · July 18th, 2006, 01:35 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JtM)

Anyway, what I'm really after is what sort of weight people are carrying for twin 12's in conjunction with a 400g undersuit?

I use 2x12's (13,2 kg dry weight apiece) with a 2,5 kg backplate and a 6 kg backplate weight. My can light is around 1 kg negative.

Dry suit is trilam with a Polar Bears 400g thinsulate suit and thin wicking skiing thermals underneath.

The 6 kg bp weight is about 3 kg overweight with my old setup, which is thin thermals, stretch fleece suit on that and a thin Ursuit overall on top. With the 400g undersuit the weight seems to be about right, I might be able to drop 1-2 kg but right now I'm a bit reluctant to do so, as the thinsulate makes dumping air from the suit a bit slower.

Wing size might also make a difference, a #55 wing will trap a lot more air than a 40/38 one even when apparently empty...

movil · July 18th, 2006, 01:51 PM

I had the same issue when I moved to a 400g DUI undersuit. I actually needed 7kg more! I have checked with other people who use these undersuits and they all have had to increase their weight by a fair amount, so 6 kg sound reasonable.

hth
Jorge

Jecowling · July 18th, 2006, 02:14 PM

I needed about 3-4kg more when I first got my Santi 400, but that's stabilised to about 2kg now as it's compressed a little bit. I use an ali backplate and 5.5kg in the sea (plus Pro6 canister), but I'm using heisers at the moment, which are a fair bit heavier than fabers. So I reckon about the same weighting as LauNar all in.

It might be an effect of the new set up (i.e. the anticipation needed to dump air in time, and the speed at which you can dump it if your bouyancy runs away from you) rather than being underweighted per se (I hesitate to say you might be overweighted, in the end you need the weight that you need and everyone is different). Does your Santi have eyelets in the arm anywhere? I found they made a big difference on my old thinsulate 300 in that they allow a quick route for the air to get to your dump valve.

Cheers
Jen

JtM · July 18th, 2006, 02:16 PM

cheers for the info guys, i was guessing i was going to have to live with the weight difference...think i will go for a 2kg v-weight and get a couple of the weight pouches to fit onto the waist strap on the harness for 2kg each...i'll probably also end up using my old suit/weezle for the warmer dives and resort to the 400g for the longer/colder/deeper stuff - which will mainly be from hardboats anyhoo...thanks again...

edit - jen, definitely not underweighted! i was floating vertically in the water with all the air *sucked* from the wing and adding weight to get me lower in the water... coming up i carried a large lump of slate with me till a got to the 6m platform and shotline!

admittedly I only had 40bar in the twins, but it was also a worst case scenario weight check...

Sterny · July 18th, 2006, 02:29 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JtM)

...So I then treated myself to a Santi undersuit, ... I was pretty gutted to find;

1. I needed 4kg of additional lead on top of what I normally use in salt water! Bearing in mind the weight check was at the local quarry! I also couldn't hold a stop at 6m, so I'm guessing I'll be needed 6KG additonal weight!

2. The bulk of the undersuit, in conjunction with the fact the explorer is slightly bulkier at the front due to the zip also, meant that shutdowns are actually harder than they are in my standard membrane/weezle...

Needless to say I'm a bit gutted, I'll be using my old suit/weezle for diving at the weekend.

Anyway, what I'm really after is what sort of weight people are carrying for twin 12's in conjunction with a 400g undersuit?

I'm using ECS 12's, stainless backplate (3kg) and a 3.5kg backplate weight.

Hi there! I'm using the same suit and undersuit as you - Protec Explorer with Santi BZ400 undersuit. I also needed to add a lot of extra weight (about 5kg) compared to my previous drysuit/undersuit combination, but I don't mind one little bit because I've never been as warm in the water as I am now. New Thinsulate suits are very buoyant (they become a little less buoyant and a little less warm after many dives).

Just to compare, I'm using Heiser 2x12's, halcyon 3mm stainless backplate, about ~2.5kg v-weight, about ~1.5kg tail weight (I had better go weight them!), and 6kg on my belt. In fresh water I drop 2kg off the weight belt to take it to just 4kg there.

It is a lot of lead, but I'm warm, and it isn't really a problem.

Regarding having trouble reaching your valves, I had severe difficulty with this for ages after getting the new suit, until Rich Walker and others showed me a couple of tricks that totally solved the problem for me.

1. The 'telescoping' fold around the waist in the suit needs to be able to extend for you to reach your valves. If your weight belt/harness are tight around your middle over the fold, it can't stretch up. Put your weight belt on and then pull the fold up and over the weightbelt, and connect up the suit's elasticated crotch strap over the weight belt. Yes, this means it's harder to ditch the weightbelt in an emergency, as we were taught by recreational training agencies, but we don't really worry about that in DIR. The waist strap of the harness should be up over your tummy, somewhat higher up than the weight belt. This also requires the webbing crotch strap on the harness to be the right length (mine was too short as I had made it up for wearing the harness waist strap around my waist, and so it pulled the backplate and everything else downwards, which also made it hard to reach the valves).

2. When entering the water, I have the shoulder autodump valve closed to keep air trapped in the suit (just for a moment), and I stretch both arms above me 'superman style' (or however you want really) to make sure you've allowed what little loose material there is in the suit to move up around your shoulders. Really work your arms up to get all the freedom into your shoulder area/upper body that you can. Then open the dump valve and continue the dive as normal. It only takes 5-10 seconds, and for me this is the difference between fighting like crazy to reach my valves, and reaching them relatively easily.

Again, these work great for me, but I can't take credit for the ideas!

Tricky · July 18th, 2006, 02:47 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JtM)

...i'll probably also end up using my old suit/weezle for the warmer dives and resort to the 400g for the longer/colder/deeper stuff...

I've only done perhaps a dozen dives in my 400g suit and am already thinking about something like a 200g for summer diving when the water temp is a little higher - take this weekend just gone for example, sitting on the boat waiting to enter the water got uncorfortable quite quickly in the heat, and I reckon a 200g would keep me just as warm in the water (it was about 14 degrees at depth).

LauNar · July 18th, 2006, 03:37 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tricky)

I've only done perhaps a dozen dives in my 400g suit and am already thinking about something like a 200g for summer diving when the water temp is a little higher - take this weekend just gone for example, sitting on the boat waiting to enter the water got uncorfortable quite quickly in the heat, and I reckon a 200g would keep me just as warm in the water (it was about 14 degrees at depth).

I'm having the same thoughts. My old undersuit proved to be more than warm enough on my cave course - the first dive was a 90 minute ice dive, it's funny how you stay warm when you have lots to do.

If I reserve the 400 gram suit for dives with deco in cold water (ie. winter dives in Ojamo etc) it might last longer. Thinsulate suits seem to lose their loft quite quickly... Actually I doubt if my next cold-conditions-undersuit will be thinsulate, I've seen enough wrecked 400 gram suits. Weezle backed with fleece might do the job just as well. I don't really think the warm-when-wet-magic-properties of thinsulate do apply to 0-4 C water anyway.

JtM · July 18th, 2006, 03:44 PM

My thoughts exactly Tricky... Or just use the weezle when its warmer, one advantage of the weezle is you can squeeze the air out to reduce the thermal properties - handy on the boat...

Sterny, thanks for the tips, I normally do my superman bit on the way down but I may well give your method ago, along with the waist strap...

Ta.

July 18th, 2006, 01:11 PM	#1 (permalink)
JtM(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chester Posts: 5	Protec Explorer/Santi Undersuit - Weighting Issues Ok, the background... Up to now I've been diving a cordura membrane suit with a weezle undersuit, no major problems... I recently treated myself to a protec explorer drysuit, lovely suit, more of a faff to get into than my rear entry suit but there you go. My first issues were getting cold in the suit, down to reasons most of us already know about - the cut of the suit minimises the amount of air the weezle can hold so you gets cold... So I then treated myself to a Santi undersuit, got it a few weeks back, top product, very well made, 400g - pretty bulky/heavy but again, there you go... I managed to do a weight check on saturday as I'm off to plymouth on thursday for 3 days hardboat diving and wanted to use my new kit. I was pretty gutted to find; 1. I needed 4kg of additional lead on top of what I normally use in salt water! Bearing in mind the weight check was at the local quarry! I also couldn't hold a stop at 6m, so I'm guessing I'll be needed 6KG additonal weight! 2. The bulk of the undersuit, in conjunction with the fact the explorer is slightly bulkier at the front due to the zip also, meant that shutdowns are actually harder than they are in my standard membrane/weezle... Needless to say I'm a bit gutted, I'll be using my old suit/weezle for diving at the weekend. Anyway, what I'm really after is what sort of weight people are carrying for twin 12's in conjunction with a 400g undersuit? I'm using ECS 12's, stainless backplate (3kg) and a 3.5kg backplate weight. I'm guessing I'm going to need about 6kg on top of this. Any ideas where I'm going to put this? I really don't want to go back to a weight belt - but sticking 6kg extra on my kit is going to be a nightmare! Any thoughts/advice appreciated!? Ta.

July 18th, 2006, 01:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
Tricky(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Reading, Berkshire Posts: 555	Quote: (Originally Posted by JtM) 2. The bulk of the undersuit, in conjunction with the fact the explorer is slightly bulkier at the front due to the zip also, meant that shutdowns are actually harder than they are in my standard membrane/weezle... I thought the same thing when I first started diving a front-entry drysuit. I think the problem was a combination of not enough air in the suit and having the waist belt too tight. Quote: I'm using ECS 12's, stainless backplate (3kg) and a 3.5kg backplate weight. I'm guessing I'm going to need about 6kg on top of this. Any ideas where I'm going to put this? I really don't want to go back to a weight belt - but sticking 6kg extra on my kit is going to be a nightmare! I need 8kg of weight (additional to the backplate). I have this as a 3kg v-weight, a 3kg p-weight, a 1kg tail weight and a 1kg block on the waist belt next to the light cannister. Last weekend I dived without the tail weight with no noticable effect on my trim so I need to add another 1kg somewhere else on my kit. I can't go bigger with the v- or p-weight so I've been considering a 6mm backplate. __________________ "I know that you believe that you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant." "Make me one with everything" said the Mystic to the Hamburger vendor. Sigmastorm RPG - Play online now free! UK Diving Forum Sryth: A Free Online Text RPG Join the Adventure! Fallen Sword: Free online RPG

July 18th, 2006, 02:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
JtM(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chester Posts: 5	cheers for the info guys, i was guessing i was going to have to live with the weight difference...think i will go for a 2kg v-weight and get a couple of the weight pouches to fit onto the waist strap on the harness for 2kg each...i'll probably also end up using my old suit/weezle for the warmer dives and resort to the 400g for the longer/colder/deeper stuff - which will mainly be from hardboats anyhoo...thanks again... edit - jen, definitely not underweighted! i was floating vertically in the water with all the air sucked from the wing and adding weight to get me lower in the water... coming up i carried a large lump of slate with me till a got to the 6m platform and shotline! admittedly I only had 40bar in the twins, but it was also a worst case scenario weight check... Last edited by JtM; July 18th, 2006 at 02:20 PM. Reason: reply to jen

July 18th, 2006, 02:29 PM	#7 (permalink)
Sterny(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: The limpid tropical lagoons of Ealing, West London Posts: 550	Quote: (Originally Posted by JtM) ...So I then treated myself to a Santi undersuit, ... I was pretty gutted to find; 1. I needed 4kg of additional lead on top of what I normally use in salt water! Bearing in mind the weight check was at the local quarry! I also couldn't hold a stop at 6m, so I'm guessing I'll be needed 6KG additonal weight! 2. The bulk of the undersuit, in conjunction with the fact the explorer is slightly bulkier at the front due to the zip also, meant that shutdowns are actually harder than they are in my standard membrane/weezle... Needless to say I'm a bit gutted, I'll be using my old suit/weezle for diving at the weekend. Anyway, what I'm really after is what sort of weight people are carrying for twin 12's in conjunction with a 400g undersuit? I'm using ECS 12's, stainless backplate (3kg) and a 3.5kg backplate weight. Hi there! I'm using the same suit and undersuit as you - Protec Explorer with Santi BZ400 undersuit. I also needed to add a lot of extra weight (about 5kg) compared to my previous drysuit/undersuit combination, but I don't mind one little bit because I've never been as warm in the water as I am now. New Thinsulate suits are very buoyant (they become a little less buoyant and a little less warm after many dives). Just to compare, I'm using Heiser 2x12's, halcyon 3mm stainless backplate, about ~2.5kg v-weight, about ~1.5kg tail weight (I had better go weight them!), and 6kg on my belt. In fresh water I drop 2kg off the weight belt to take it to just 4kg there. It is a lot of lead, but I'm warm, and it isn't really a problem. Regarding having trouble reaching your valves, I had severe difficulty with this for ages after getting the new suit, until Rich Walker and others showed me a couple of tricks that totally solved the problem for me. 1. The 'telescoping' fold around the waist in the suit needs to be able to extend for you to reach your valves. If your weight belt/harness are tight around your middle over the fold, it can't stretch up. Put your weight belt on and then pull the fold up and over the weightbelt, and connect up the suit's elasticated crotch strap over the weight belt. Yes, this means it's harder to ditch the weightbelt in an emergency, as we were taught by recreational training agencies, but we don't really worry about that in DIR. The waist strap of the harness should be up over your tummy, somewhat higher up than the weight belt. This also requires the webbing crotch strap on the harness to be the right length (mine was too short as I had made it up for wearing the harness waist strap around my waist, and so it pulled the backplate and everything else downwards, which also made it hard to reach the valves). 2. When entering the water, I have the shoulder autodump valve closed to keep air trapped in the suit (just for a moment), and I stretch both arms above me 'superman style' (or however you want really) to make sure you've allowed what little loose material there is in the suit to move up around your shoulders. Really work your arms up to get all the freedom into your shoulder area/upper body that you can. Then open the dump valve and continue the dive as normal. It only takes 5-10 seconds, and for me this is the difference between fighting like crazy to reach my valves, and reaching them relatively easily. Again, these work great for me, but I can't take credit for the ideas! __________________ "I thought I had a great idea today, but it never really took off. In fact, it didn't even get on the runway. I guess you could say it exploded in the hangar." - Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes

July 18th, 2006, 02:47 PM	#8 (permalink)
Tricky(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Reading, Berkshire Posts: 555	Quote: (Originally Posted by JtM) ...i'll probably also end up using my old suit/weezle for the warmer dives and resort to the 400g for the longer/colder/deeper stuff... I've only done perhaps a dozen dives in my 400g suit and am already thinking about something like a 200g for summer diving when the water temp is a little higher - take this weekend just gone for example, sitting on the boat waiting to enter the water got uncorfortable quite quickly in the heat, and I reckon a 200g would keep me just as warm in the water (it was about 14 degrees at depth). __________________ "I know that you believe that you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant." "Make me one with everything" said the Mystic to the Hamburger vendor. Sigmastorm RPG - Play online now free! UK Diving Forum Sryth: A Free Online Text RPG Join the Adventure! Fallen Sword: Free online RPG

July 18th, 2006, 01:35 PM	#3 (permalink)
LauNar (Online) ... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 131	Quote: (Originally Posted by JtM) Anyway, what I'm really after is what sort of weight people are carrying for twin 12's in conjunction with a 400g undersuit? I use 2x12's (13,2 kg dry weight apiece) with a 2,5 kg backplate and a 6 kg backplate weight. My can light is around 1 kg negative. Dry suit is trilam with a Polar Bears 400g thinsulate suit and thin wicking skiing thermals underneath. The 6 kg bp weight is about 3 kg overweight with my old setup, which is thin thermals, stretch fleece suit on that and a thin Ursuit overall on top. With the 400g undersuit the weight seems to be about right, I might be able to drop 1-2 kg but right now I'm a bit reluctant to do so, as the thinsulate makes dumping air from the suit a bit slower. Wing size might also make a difference, a #55 wing will trap a lot more air than a 40/38 one even when apparently empty...

July 18th, 2006, 01:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
movil (Online) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Spain Posts: 37	I had the same issue when I moved to a 400g DUI undersuit. I actually needed 7kg more! I have checked with other people who use these undersuits and they all have had to increase their weight by a fair amount, so 6 kg sound reasonable. hth Jorge

July 18th, 2006, 02:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
Jecowling (Online) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sheffield, UK Posts: 120	I needed about 3-4kg more when I first got my Santi 400, but that's stabilised to about 2kg now as it's compressed a little bit. I use an ali backplate and 5.5kg in the sea (plus Pro6 canister), but I'm using heisers at the moment, which are a fair bit heavier than fabers. So I reckon about the same weighting as LauNar all in. It might be an effect of the new set up (i.e. the anticipation needed to dump air in time, and the speed at which you can dump it if your bouyancy runs away from you) rather than being underweighted per se (I hesitate to say you might be overweighted, in the end you need the weight that you need and everyone is different). Does your Santi have eyelets in the arm anywhere? I found they made a big difference on my old thinsulate 300 in that they allow a quick route for the air to get to your dump valve. Cheers Jen

July 18th, 2006, 03:37 PM	#9 (permalink)
LauNar (Online) ... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 131	Quote: (Originally Posted by Tricky) I've only done perhaps a dozen dives in my 400g suit and am already thinking about something like a 200g for summer diving when the water temp is a little higher - take this weekend just gone for example, sitting on the boat waiting to enter the water got uncorfortable quite quickly in the heat, and I reckon a 200g would keep me just as warm in the water (it was about 14 degrees at depth). I'm having the same thoughts. My old undersuit proved to be more than warm enough on my cave course - the first dive was a 90 minute ice dive, it's funny how you stay warm when you have lots to do. If I reserve the 400 gram suit for dives with deco in cold water (ie. winter dives in Ojamo etc) it might last longer. Thinsulate suits seem to lose their loft quite quickly... Actually I doubt if my next cold-conditions-undersuit will be thinsulate, I've seen enough wrecked 400 gram suits. Weezle backed with fleece might do the job just as well. I don't really think the warm-when-wet-magic-properties of thinsulate do apply to 0-4 C water anyway.

July 18th, 2006, 03:44 PM	#10 (permalink)
JtM(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chester Posts: 5	My thoughts exactly Tricky... Or just use the weezle when its warmer, one advantage of the weezle is you can squeeze the air out to reduce the thermal properties - handy on the boat... Sterny, thanks for the tips, I normally do my superman bit on the way down but I may well give your method ago, along with the waist strap... Ta.