Trials and tribulations of a Smurf! (Dry Gloves)

dlegros · May 7th, 2006, 01:12 AM

Following a long conversation with Marianne (MJH), she has suggested I share my dry glove experiences with everyone for your combined entertainment

As time has passed, I have noticed I feel the cold (particularly in my hands more and more).

At the January DIRX Stoney gig, I got a pair of Hydrotech Smurf Hands

Following the vast amusement offered to all getting me into my new toys, I found that there was a marked difference - my hands only made it as far as insanely painful - not numb as a corpse - and I could just about launch an SMB, rather than require a manservant to de-kit me

I did a few more dives with them and realised that the faffage involved in putting them on was a pain (I even had an open water student help me with the seals!), and they could be warmer, they have a flock type lining which offers little room for different insulation.

Also, you have a 1-2" band across the wrist where the radial and ulnar arteries pass, where you only have the latex seals (and possibly a sweat band

), this allows the area to cool enough to shut down the circulation to the hand, and you end up horribly cold and numb.

After a conversation with Andy Kerslake (and fondling his Qualofill liner gloves) I though that RoLock rings were the way to go, and Phill Nackers was going to stock them.

Logically, the ring system should be warmer as you lose the overlapping latex seals, and replace this with air.

I had agreed to dive with Phil (recurve in YD) at Stoney and decided to call into the Nacker's Yard to get a set of RoLock gloves.

Fitting the rings was interesting - the instructions are in German! You can download a set of instructions as a PDF from the net, but they are in "Swenglish" - imagine the worst Ikea instructions, but with words!

After trying to follow the instructions for the first ring (left arm) I realised I could not turn the sleeve back from inside out to normal as I kept snagging on the cuff dump (please, keep quiet the cries of heresy

). Remove the cuff-dump and the sleeve can be inverted back to normal.

Great, fit the other ring and all is sorted - or is it?

Now I get the first instruction about marking the point on the wrist seal that marks the back of the hand! You need to orient the rings correctly so that the 1/4 turn lock works as expected - D'OH! Time to remove the suit rings and start again.

Second time lucky - I have the suit rings mounted and persuade the gloves into their rings with judicious application of percussive maintenance.

On arriving at Stoney with my nice shiny new £135 dry glove system, I get my under-suit and liner gloves on - and realise I got the glove rings mixed up! The left glove is on the right ring and vice-versa :stupid: I could get the gloves mounted, just not as the instructions indicated.

All ready to go, gloves mounted and jump in the water - AAARGH! the right glove has leaked!

Well, I'm in the water lets go for a dive and feel the water suck up the liner glove, under the wrist seal of my suit and up my right arm

It turns out that removing the gloves from the rings is even harder than mounting them, but I swap the gloves over and take extra special care to ensure that there are no folds in the glove where it mounts into the ring.

After a dry fortnight, I get back to Stoney with recurve and hatch a cunning plan...

Rather than running the liners under my wrist seals, I opt to have them just within the dry gloves, then if I have a leak, only my hand will get wet and I don't have to wuss out on the second dive.

I find the supposedly easy to use rings incredibly difficult, and struggling with the system in 25C sunshine in my drysuit, fully kitted in Xerotherm and Arctics I stat getting hot... too hot.

I get the right glove on with difficulty, but the left one doesn't want to play, it just won't turn. With help, I get it to go, but it doesn't look right. A quick plunge test reveals that it isn't right and my left hand is now wet...

No problem, take the glove off... cr*p, I can't!

Get some help to get it off... No, it won't budge!

I'M STUCK! I can't get the left glove off, bu

er!

Phil and the others are in the water waiting for me, so I suggest to Phil, that if I get out of my gear and unzip my drysuit, I can sort it out.

WRONG! I can't get the glove off and I'm over-heating like crazy.

I'm de-kitted and have my suit half off, so I tell the others to go and dive and I'll sort myself out.

Just as they break the surface, I work it all out - my cunning plan to wear the liner gloves outside the suit seals, had a fundamental flaw - the limers are too big! I've managed to jam the liner within the RoLock fitting, thus making it difficult to turn and compromising the o-ring - DAMN!

30 seconds later I have my suit on with the liner gloves under the wrist seals and the dry gloves click on and off like magic, nuts. the others have gone.

Finally, I get a dive with the RoLock gloves, set up (almost) correctly and they work a treat - they just take perseverance to set up, but my hands were noticeably warmer.

Many people say they can't cope with the lost of dexterity, but I find that the diminished dexterity is more than mitigated by the fact I can actually use my hands.

Overall, I would recommend the RoLock Glove System just be prepared to spend some time setting them up - and ideally get help from someone who has done it before

Dom

MJH · May 7th, 2006, 01:20 AM

What I actually said was that I was in a heap at work when I read your pm and that you should post it and give everyone a good laugh!

Of course I also had the pleasure of watching you struggle in January

LCF · May 7th, 2006, 04:57 PM

Ah, the familiar trials and tribulations of the newly dry-gloved . . .

I bought the Viking ring system, which I now really love and will put on the new dry suit, too, but the learning curve had some interesting peaks and valleys. I got the rings installed on the suit with no problems, feeling immensely clever, until I, too, realized that I had oriented them incorrectly, and than unless I was willing to remove my hands and sew them on backwards, it simply wouldn't do.

Then I carefully installed the gloves on their rings according to the smudged photographs on the mimeographed instructions, and looked at the final assembly and thought, "This can't work; if any of the woven liner is exposed to the water, the water will just wick into the glove!." Checked the photographs, and it looked just like them, so I went diving, and in fact, I was right -- flooded gloves. Took the gloves out and redid them and tested them in our hot tub (memo to all: flooding gloves with hot water beats flooding them with cold water all hollow) and they still leaked.

Scratching head. Decided gloves without woven/bonded liners might be the answer. Went and bought what were essentially dishwashing gloves. Dry one dive. Checked after second dive, leaks were in the gloves themselves. Memo to self: The upward curve of durability and the downward curve of dexterity when plotting against thickness intersect somewhere.

In the end, I found a compromise glove, installed it correctly, and now I only have to twist my hands a little out of the normally achievable anatomic range in order to get the rings locked properly.

It was all worth it.

aleksi · May 24th, 2006, 05:53 PM

A bit off topic but here goes...

Have any of you tried to swap gloves to the RoLock glove side ring? I previously got mine and the glove-side rings came installed but I want to shorten them.

The red ring inside the glove fits really tight, I'm afraid it will break if forced out! Has anyone here done this, is there some trick that will help? Thanks once again for help on this!

Aleksi

dlegros · May 24th, 2006, 10:06 PM

It can be done, I had to remove mine.

Get a blunt knife with a rounded tip (like a butter knife) gently work the red ring out by levering with the knife working around the ring. Once it gets out a little, switch to a bottle opener until the ring works free.

You will make some marks in the ring, so go gently, but it will come out.

Dom

Little Pete · May 24th, 2006, 11:38 PM

Are those using dry gloves just going with the yellow liner gloves for insulation or do you use something like a 40grm thinsulate woolly glove?

I've only seen the liners a couple of times but they don't seem to have too much insulation to them.

LCF · May 25th, 2006, 01:39 AM

I use one of two undergloves -- either a thin polarfleece glove, or a Thinsulate riding glove. Both work nicely for warmth and give me very good dexterity. And I had them both, which was a nice touch, too!

rjack · May 25th, 2006, 02:15 AM

That was a great story!

Never heard of the RoLock system tho. I thought you'd be using the Sitek rings (Swedish, better than Ikea directions with pictures). They are about $90 in this country, kinda pricy for tiny little bits of plastic with no gloves. But gloves are fairly inexpensive outside dive shops.

Richard

dlegros · May 25th, 2006, 05:58 AM

The Ro-Lock gloves are made by Nordic Blue, I believe the rings are a little smaller than the others.

I am using the wooly yellow liners at the mo, but I have some meraklon inner liners (from Decathlon), some thinsulate gloves from the US and you can get qualofil (synthetic down almost) liners as well that AndyK uses (I am thinking of those

)

HTH

Dom

LauNar · May 25th, 2006, 02:19 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Little Pete)

Are those using dry gloves just going with the yellow liner gloves for insulation or do you use something like a 40grm thinsulate woolly glove?

I've only seen the liners a couple of times but they don't seem to have too much insulation to them.

The yellow liners don't work for me, they are not too warm to begin with, and if the gloves happen to flood they seem to suck the water in and get really cold. I have tried several thinsulate gloves, but they seem to be a bit too clumsy for me. Currently I'm happy with relatively thin, snugly fitting fleece winter cycling gloves, but might need a bit thicker ones for longer exposures. This far they've been nice for up to 90 mins at ~4-5 deg C and 40-50 mins at -1-0 deg C.

I also use wristbands of really dense angora wool under the wrist seals which take care of equalisation and seem to make a big difference in warmth too. They seem to repel water, you can hold them under the tap and the water just flows over them without them getting soaked - so if you manage to flood a glove the water will take a while to get under the seal to the undersuit.

//LN

May 7th, 2006, 01:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
dlegros(Offline) 20% Ninja 80% Rebel Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Birmingham Posts: 245	Trials and tribulations of a Smurf! (Dry Gloves) Following a long conversation with Marianne (MJH), she has suggested I share my dry glove experiences with everyone for your combined entertainment As time has passed, I have noticed I feel the cold (particularly in my hands more and more). At the January DIRX Stoney gig, I got a pair of Hydrotech Smurf Hands Following the vast amusement offered to all getting me into my new toys, I found that there was a marked difference - my hands only made it as far as insanely painful - not numb as a corpse - and I could just about launch an SMB, rather than require a manservant to de-kit me I did a few more dives with them and realised that the faffage involved in putting them on was a pain (I even had an open water student help me with the seals!), and they could be warmer, they have a flock type lining which offers little room for different insulation. Also, you have a 1-2" band across the wrist where the radial and ulnar arteries pass, where you only have the latex seals (and possibly a sweat band ), this allows the area to cool enough to shut down the circulation to the hand, and you end up horribly cold and numb. After a conversation with Andy Kerslake (and fondling his Qualofill liner gloves) I though that RoLock rings were the way to go, and Phill Nackers was going to stock them. Logically, the ring system should be warmer as you lose the overlapping latex seals, and replace this with air. I had agreed to dive with Phil (recurve in YD) at Stoney and decided to call into the Nacker's Yard to get a set of RoLock gloves. Fitting the rings was interesting - the instructions are in German! You can download a set of instructions as a PDF from the net, but they are in "Swenglish" - imagine the worst Ikea instructions, but with words! After trying to follow the instructions for the first ring (left arm) I realised I could not turn the sleeve back from inside out to normal as I kept snagging on the cuff dump (please, keep quiet the cries of heresy ). Remove the cuff-dump and the sleeve can be inverted back to normal. Great, fit the other ring and all is sorted - or is it? Now I get the first instruction about marking the point on the wrist seal that marks the back of the hand! You need to orient the rings correctly so that the 1/4 turn lock works as expected - D'OH! Time to remove the suit rings and start again. Second time lucky - I have the suit rings mounted and persuade the gloves into their rings with judicious application of percussive maintenance. On arriving at Stoney with my nice shiny new £135 dry glove system, I get my under-suit and liner gloves on - and realise I got the glove rings mixed up! The left glove is on the right ring and vice-versa :stupid: I could get the gloves mounted, just not as the instructions indicated. All ready to go, gloves mounted and jump in the water - AAARGH! the right glove has leaked! Well, I'm in the water lets go for a dive and feel the water suck up the liner glove, under the wrist seal of my suit and up my right arm It turns out that removing the gloves from the rings is even harder than mounting them, but I swap the gloves over and take extra special care to ensure that there are no folds in the glove where it mounts into the ring. After a dry fortnight, I get back to Stoney with recurve and hatch a cunning plan... Rather than running the liners under my wrist seals, I opt to have them just within the dry gloves, then if I have a leak, only my hand will get wet and I don't have to wuss out on the second dive. I find the supposedly easy to use rings incredibly difficult, and struggling with the system in 25C sunshine in my drysuit, fully kitted in Xerotherm and Arctics I stat getting hot... too hot. I get the right glove on with difficulty, but the left one doesn't want to play, it just won't turn. With help, I get it to go, but it doesn't look right. A quick plunge test reveals that it isn't right and my left hand is now wet... No problem, take the glove off... crp, I can't! Get some help to get it off... No, it won't budge! I'M STUCK!* I can't get the left glove off, buer! Phil and the others are in the water waiting for me, so I suggest to Phil, that if I get out of my gear and unzip my drysuit, I can sort it out. WRONG! I can't get the glove off and I'm over-heating like crazy. I'm de-kitted and have my suit half off, so I tell the others to go and dive and I'll sort myself out. Just as they break the surface, I work it all out - my cunning plan to wear the liner gloves outside the suit seals, had a fundamental flaw - the limers are too big! I've managed to jam the liner within the RoLock fitting, thus making it difficult to turn and compromising the o-ring - DAMN! 30 seconds later I have my suit on with the liner gloves under the wrist seals and the dry gloves click on and off like magic, nuts. the others have gone. Finally, I get a dive with the RoLock gloves, set up (almost) correctly and they work a treat - they just take perseverance to set up, but my hands were noticeably warmer. Many people say they can't cope with the lost of dexterity, but I find that the diminished dexterity is more than mitigated by the fact I can actually use my hands. Overall, I would recommend the RoLock Glove System just be prepared to spend some time setting them up - and ideally get help from someone who has done it before Dom __________________ Dom I reject your reality and substitute my own DIR-RA

May 7th, 2006, 01:20 AM	#2 (permalink)
MJH(Offline) Mask? Oh yes, I thought it was cold.... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Orpington, Kent Posts: 389	What I actually said was that I was in a heap at work when I read your pm and that you should post it and give everyone a good laugh! Of course I also had the pleasure of watching you struggle in January Last edited by MJH; May 7th, 2006 at 01:32 AM.

May 24th, 2006, 10:06 PM	#5 (permalink)
dlegros(Offline) 20% Ninja 80% Rebel Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Birmingham Posts: 245	It can be done, I had to remove mine. Get a blunt knife with a rounded tip (like a butter knife) gently work the red ring out by levering with the knife working around the ring. Once it gets out a little, switch to a bottle opener until the ring works free. You will make some marks in the ring, so go gently, but it will come out. Dom __________________ Dom I reject your reality and substitute my own DIR-RA

May 25th, 2006, 05:58 AM	#9 (permalink)
dlegros(Offline) 20% Ninja 80% Rebel Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Birmingham Posts: 245	The Ro-Lock gloves are made by Nordic Blue, I believe the rings are a little smaller than the others. I am using the wooly yellow liners at the mo, but I have some meraklon inner liners (from Decathlon), some thinsulate gloves from the US and you can get qualofil (synthetic down almost) liners as well that AndyK uses (I am thinking of those ) HTH Dom __________________ Dom I reject your reality and substitute my own DIR-RA

May 7th, 2006, 04:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
LCF(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 623	Ah, the familiar trials and tribulations of the newly dry-gloved . . . I bought the Viking ring system, which I now really love and will put on the new dry suit, too, but the learning curve had some interesting peaks and valleys. I got the rings installed on the suit with no problems, feeling immensely clever, until I, too, realized that I had oriented them incorrectly, and than unless I was willing to remove my hands and sew them on backwards, it simply wouldn't do. Then I carefully installed the gloves on their rings according to the smudged photographs on the mimeographed instructions, and looked at the final assembly and thought, "This can't work; if any of the woven liner is exposed to the water, the water will just wick into the glove!." Checked the photographs, and it looked just like them, so I went diving, and in fact, I was right -- flooded gloves. Took the gloves out and redid them and tested them in our hot tub (memo to all: flooding gloves with hot water beats flooding them with cold water all hollow) and they still leaked. Scratching head. Decided gloves without woven/bonded liners might be the answer. Went and bought what were essentially dishwashing gloves. Dry one dive. Checked after second dive, leaks were in the gloves themselves. Memo to self: The upward curve of durability and the downward curve of dexterity when plotting against thickness intersect somewhere. In the end, I found a compromise glove, installed it correctly, and now I only have to twist my hands a little out of the normally achievable anatomic range in order to get the rings locked properly. It was all worth it.

May 24th, 2006, 05:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
aleksi(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 89	A bit off topic but here goes... Have any of you tried to swap gloves to the RoLock glove side ring? I previously got mine and the glove-side rings came installed but I want to shorten them. The red ring inside the glove fits really tight, I'm afraid it will break if forced out! Has anyone here done this, is there some trick that will help? Thanks once again for help on this! Aleksi

May 24th, 2006, 11:38 PM	#6 (permalink)
Little Pete(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 509	Are those using dry gloves just going with the yellow liner gloves for insulation or do you use something like a 40grm thinsulate woolly glove? I've only seen the liners a couple of times but they don't seem to have too much insulation to them.

May 25th, 2006, 01:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
LCF(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 623	I use one of two undergloves -- either a thin polarfleece glove, or a Thinsulate riding glove. Both work nicely for warmth and give me very good dexterity. And I had them both, which was a nice touch, too!

May 25th, 2006, 02:15 AM	#8 (permalink)
rjack(Offline) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 863	That was a great story! Never heard of the RoLock system tho. I thought you'd be using the Sitek rings (Swedish, better than Ikea directions with pictures). They are about $90 in this country, kinda pricy for tiny little bits of plastic with no gloves. But gloves are fairly inexpensive outside dive shops. Richard

May 25th, 2006, 02:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
LauNar (Online) ... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 131	Quote: (Originally Posted by Little Pete) Are those using dry gloves just going with the yellow liner gloves for insulation or do you use something like a 40grm thinsulate woolly glove? I've only seen the liners a couple of times but they don't seem to have too much insulation to them. The yellow liners don't work for me, they are not too warm to begin with, and if the gloves happen to flood they seem to suck the water in and get really cold. I have tried several thinsulate gloves, but they seem to be a bit too clumsy for me. Currently I'm happy with relatively thin, snugly fitting fleece winter cycling gloves, but might need a bit thicker ones for longer exposures. This far they've been nice for up to 90 mins at ~4-5 deg C and 40-50 mins at -1-0 deg C. I also use wristbands of really dense angora wool under the wrist seals which take care of equalisation and seem to make a big difference in warmth too. They seem to repel water, you can hold them under the tap and the water just flows over them without them getting soaked - so if you manage to flood a glove the water will take a while to get under the seal to the undersuit. //LN