Sterny(Offline)

Have perused the threads here and on YD couldn't really find direct answers to these questions, so here goes...

I'm thinking of getting a Protec Pro-Explorer drysuit (made to measure, more or less a copy of the DUI TLS350 with a couple of minor tweaks to seam placement), as my current O'Three 5mm uncompressed neoprene suit is not suited to the kind of diving I'm doing any more. I can't reach my valves in it and the buoyancy issues are significant, though it's great for single-tank recreational BCD diving, but I'm doing less of that these days.

Seems sensible to take the undersuit I'll be wearing with me when I go Ian Clayton to get measured for the suit and/or try on examples to get an idea of fit and what the measurements need to be. I currently have:
* a Weezle Extreme (which lives in my cupboard and hasn't been dived in 9 months, but may possibly equate to the bulk of a 400g thinsulate undersuit)
* some thin reedtech fleece undergarments for summer (irrelevant here, I guess)
* Xerotherm Arctic undersuit (top, bottoms, socks) which I've read here and elsewhere is roughly equivalent to 200g thinsulate, and incidentally which I like a lot and will probably use in summer under the new drysuit
However, I expect to be doing more longer and colder dives as time goes on, and I'd like to have the suit made to allow for a really good undersuit, which I think means 400g thinsulate. So, I'm considering buying a 400g thinsulate suit first, to take it to have on while I'm measured for the drysuit. With me so far?!

Question 1: Are any of my existing undersuits (I'm thinking of the weezle or perhaps the weezle plus the Xerotherm Arctics) approximately the same bulk as a 400g thinsulate suit. I guess the answer's no, not even close (expect they'll be bulkier than a thinsulate suit and also more restrictive, but I don't want to throw money around unless it's really necessary).

Question 2: if I do need to get a 400g thinsulate suit, would you recommend DUI from Hydrotech at £244 for stock sizes (the person I spoke to couldn't find the mtm price but they can do that), Polar Bears PB400 mtm at £195 or something else?

Question 3: What's the difference between the different types of Thinsulate. Why is Type B different/better than Type C. Is there a Type A?

Thanks in advance!

David

pdorrell(Offline)

Hi David,

I've just gone for the Polar Bear 400g, and am reasonably happy with it.

In terms of bulk... my old weezle extreme was bulkier when on, but compresses much more readily than the polar bear. This is great until you are in the water as you'll loose the insulation properties of the weezle unless you want to swim round looking like a pufferfish.

From a transport point of view, you can stick our Weezle into a stuff sack easily, but you certainly can't do that with the thinsulate suit... its just too big.

The Polar Bear suit is very good, but I felt that it is still a little restrictive around the shoulders and I am planning a bit of undersuit surgery to sort this out. It would have been a better idea to get a custom fit, but I took the cheapo option and got mine at the dive show. On the other hand it really is warm... and is much better than my back up which is a Xerotherm basic covered by a Xerotherm artic.

In your case you could try your reedtech and artic at the same time, but I doubt it would work as well. I would steer clear of the weezle with anything else though if you are planning to minimise the air in your drysuit.

As for the difference between type B and C undersuits, I havn't got a clue.

Phil O(Offline)

I'm not sure on the technical differences between the two but the big difference to me is that if my dry suit leaks my DUI 400gm holds the water away from my skin stopping me from getting cold. It works as I've had suit floods with both types.You might want to try Aquarius Diving in Didcot for a DUI undersuit - they used to be a dealer and had some in a sale a while back.

__________________
Phil

Alastair(Offline)

1) Bring your weezle sunday while it compresses underwater you can have a look at it in comparison to a 400gram thickness at the surface and see whether you think it would be comparable. For the purpose of getting a suit measured correctly it might just do.

2) I've got two DUI's a 200gram and a 400gram. The 200 is a great fit and I'm pleased with it - it is a size large. I have a 400 which is a bit big and has excess material in odd places, sized medium . So I'm 1/2 pleased with DUI, definitely a try before you buy. Fraser has a PB and has been pleased with it. The third option - well I think Marcin was getting some 400gram suits from another source?

3) Type B thinsulate is designed for lining your boots and is designed to resist compression and resist mositure. It's therefore best suited to maintaining warmth without a lot of gas in your drysuit and in the event of a flood. Type C does the warmth while damp element but isn't as resistant to compression, so it's OK but not as good as type B.

As for other types well there is a G, FX, S, I, U etc
http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...er/output_html

Cheers
Al

__________________
Helium is our friend - GI3

Bob Cooper(Offline)

Like Phil says the type B thinsulate will keep most of its buoyancy in the event of a suit flood. It's very hard to get "wet", try sinking one in a bath of water and you will see what I mean.

Thinsulate Type B (I think they call it Ultra now?) is made by 3M and was originally developed to mop up oil spills on water. It was later developed as a thermal insulation. It is one of a range of materials (type a,b,c etc). The good thing about Type B is that it was developed for footwear and maintains its insulation properties when compressed. This makes it ideal for dry suit insulation since you don't need a large amount of air or argon in the suit to provide good insulation. Other types of thinsulate are for use in things like gloves and skiwear and are useless when compressed.

I have some more info about Type B thinsulate which I'll try to post later.

Bob Cooper(Offline)

The Thinsulate that is used in DUI divewear is Type B and the B stands for boot so it is in the Footwear group

Thinsulate Insulation,
Thinsulate Flex Insulation
Thinsulate Lite Loft Insulation
Thinsulate Ultra Extreme Insulation
Thinsulate Ultra Active Insulation
Thinsulate Insulation for Footwear

Little history: In the beginning there was only type M and it was not insulation it was used for cleaning up oil spills. Type M which later became type B is 100% polypropyline micro fibers. As such is produce a dense and compression resistant batting which is why it is use in boots. However it dose not make good ski jackets because is dose not have the loft like down jackets. All the other variants of Thinsulate are blended with different qualities of polyester fibers which act as springs and make it more lofty. However this loft is highly compressible, the pressure gradient across a dry suit when the diver is vertical in the water is about 3 psi and when the diver is in the prone it is about 1 psi. Type M and later B batting only loses about 40-60 percent of it insulation when loaded at these pressure and the other types of high loft battings loss 85-95 percent of their insulation under the same loading. Because of this resistance to pressure loading type B is use in footwear.

The second property that made the M and later B batting the Navy's choice, for critical diving applications, was that dense nature of the batting. The dens packing of the fibers which makes it compression resistant also helps it maintain more of its insulation when immersed, this is because the fibers are so close together there is not much space for water to ingress.

DUI looks at each new variant of 3Ms Thinsulate when it comes out for suability for divewear, to date none of these match up with thinsulate. The only material know to come close is a material called Flectalon which come from the UK, however Flectalon dose not have wide distributed and it is more expensive. (Red: NEDU Report: Insulation, Compressibility and Absorbency of Dry Suit Undergarments.)

Hope this helps

jluttichau(Offline)

I've got the MTM version of the polarbear suit and it's got a pretty good fit.

Cheers
Jonas

Sterny(Offline)

Wow guys, great answers. Thanks! Anyone else have good or bad things to say about DUI vs Polar Bears? Most of what I see suggests both are good...

anders(Offline)

I'll second that


Cheers
anders

Martin Burnard(Offline)

I used to wear MTM suits for work. I ALWAYS went to the tailor for measuring, took my old suit to wear for them and they could see where the cut could be improved or changed ( 40 inch chest, 28 inch waist at the time, and largish thighs.... now smaller chest, larger waist, and sparrow thighs!).

The suits were always a good fit. A friend sent his measurements to the same tailor... suit was a poor fit. He got his ass in has hand and went to complain, the tailor measured him and came up with completely different measurements, remade the suit, my friend gave him a tip for such a good suit!!!!.

So if going MTM, go to the factory!