Dilemma: Dumping air while in Trim (Wing vs Technique)

Stathis · May 21st, 2008, 11:55 AM

Hi Everybody,

Staraight from the start this feels like ''If you cannot Drive, blame the Car'' but although I have tried to read previous related threads, I still need your input!

I dive Faber, double-12s with a 55lb Explorer wing and (occasionally) carry a 6lt ali deco bottle. In this configuration I find it difficult to dump air from the kidney valve. Even a slightly ''bum-up'' position doesn't help. The wing feels too floppy and big for me to reach and position the valve so to dump air effectively. Unless of course I go ''head-up'' and use the inflator hose!

On the other hand, I dived a Frog Indigo with a single cylinder and loved it. Never had to touch the inflator hose for dumping air or beak trim!

So the question is, do I persevere with the Explorer and learn to dive properly? or Do I consider a 40lb Explorer? Or (being aware of the cylinder vs wing length issue) do I consider 40lb Evolve/50lb Frog Midnight?

Thanks
Stathis

graham_hk · May 21st, 2008, 12:01 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis)

Hi Everybody,

Staraight from the start this feels like ''If you cannot Drive, blame the Car'' but although I have tried to read previous related threads, I still need your input!

I dive Faber, double-12s with a 55lb Explorer wing and (occasionally) carry a 6lt ali deco bottle. In this configuration I find it difficult to dump air from the kidney valve. Even a slightly ''bum-up'' position doesn't help. The wing feels too floppy and big for me to reach and position the valve so to dump air effectively. Unless of course I go ''head-up'' and use the inflator hose!

On the other hand, I dived a Frog Indigo with a single cylinder and loved it. Never had to touch the inflator hose for dumping air or beak trim!

So the question is, do I persevere with the Explorer and learn to dive properly? or Do I consider a 40lb Explorer? Or (being aware of the cylinder vs wing length issue) do I consider 40lb Evolve/50lb Frog Midnight?

Thanks
Stathis

Yep the 55lb wing is far to big for 12s - better suited to 8" tanks (15s, 18s and 104s etc) - so you will struggle a bit. The evolve makes dumping gas significantly easier.

Rob Forrest · May 21st, 2008, 12:05 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis)

So the question is......Do I consider a 40lb Explorer? Or (being aware of the cylinder vs wing length issue) do I consider 40lb Evolve/50lb Frog Midnight?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis)

The wing feels too floppy and big for me to reach and position the valve so to dump air effectively. Unless of course I go ''head-up'' and use the inflator hose!

I think the consensus now is that the 55lb is too big for double 12s ?? I started of with a 55lb (explorer) on faber 12s and experienced the same issues as you are having. Then I borrowed a 40lb (explorer) and it was a different story

Now I have a 40lb evolve and am really happy with that. Dumping gas is a lot easier - probably a combination of the wing and more experience! I've not had any issues with the evolve and length of fabers....

**neilh** · May 21st, 2008, 12:09 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis)

The wing feels too floppy and big

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rob Forrest)

I think the consensus now is that the 55lb is too big for double 12s ??

Yep - the 55 is definitely too big for 12s. A 40lb is the way to go.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rob Forrest)

I've not had any issues with the evolve and length of fabers....

Likewise, although you do need to be more careful with the Evolve and Fabers. The Explorer is probably a slightly better size, but both work fine.

Stathis · May 22nd, 2008, 11:37 AM

Thanks everyone and one last question on the subject (if I may):
Any thoughts on the choice between the 40lb Evolve and the 50lb Frog Midnight? How similar do hey feel underwater? Would the extra 10lb lift of the Frog bring the same problems to the 55lb Explorer? or should I take advantage of the cost-savings and put it towards the F-Word?

**MartyC** · May 22nd, 2008, 12:40 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis)

Thanks everyone and one last question on the subject (if I may):
Any thoughts on the choice between the 40lb Evolve and the 50lb Frog Midnight? How similar do hey feel underwater? Would the extra 10lb lift of the Frog bring the same problems to the 55lb Explorer? or should I take advantage of the cost-savings and put it towards the F-Word?

Stathis,
I can't comment on the H, but I have the F and its fine with 12's completely different to the large explorer and no problems with dumping air or the quailty so far.
I'm not getting into the H vs F thing

Marty

**Alastair** · May 22nd, 2008, 12:56 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis)

Thanks everyone and one last question on the subject (if I may):
Any thoughts on the choice between the 40lb Evolve and the 50lb Frog Midnight? How similar do hey feel underwater? Would the extra 10lb lift of the Frog bring the same problems to the 55lb Explorer? or should I take advantage of the cost-savings and put it towards the F-Word?

Never dived the Frog stuff but I have 40lbs wing for 12's and use a 60lbs for 104's,18's,RB80. The 40 is certainly fine for 12's and a load of stages.

The comment made about a donut shaped wing being a bit too long on faber 12's is actually very relevant. You can end up damaging the wing as its longer than the cylinders. Might be worth you borrowing the gear off someone to test it. Not sure when and where you are next diving but if you can meet up with someone it might be a good move.

Cheers
Al

**MartyC** · May 22nd, 2008, 01:30 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Alastair)

Never dived the Frog stuff but I have 40lbs wing for 12's and use a 60lbs for 104's,18's,RB80. The 40 is certainly fine for 12's and a load of stages.

The comment made about a donut shaped wing being a bit too long on faber 12's is actually very relevant. You can end up damaging the wing as its longer than the cylinders. Might be worth you borrowing the gear off someone to test it. Not sure when and where you are next diving but if you can meet up with someone it might be a good move.

Cheers
Al

Al I used my F wing with fabers without any issues

Mal Bridgeman · May 22nd, 2008, 02:00 PM

Perhaps you could try my 40lb Explorer on Saturday ..... we'll be there from about 11am

HTH
Mal

Icarusflies · May 22nd, 2008, 09:01 PM

A good tip from Clare from this forum was to pull the cord towards the sky while in trim...this directs air to the valve....I dive a 40lb explorer but you could try with your 50lb and see how it goes...

Steve

May 21st, 2008, 11:55 AM	#1 (permalink)
Stathis(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: London Posts: 22	Dilemma: Dumping air while in Trim (Wing vs Technique) Hi Everybody, Staraight from the start this feels like ''If you cannot Drive, blame the Car'' but although I have tried to read previous related threads, I still need your input! I dive Faber, double-12s with a 55lb Explorer wing and (occasionally) carry a 6lt ali deco bottle. In this configuration I find it difficult to dump air from the kidney valve. Even a slightly ''bum-up'' position doesn't help. The wing feels too floppy and big for me to reach and position the valve so to dump air effectively. Unless of course I go ''head-up'' and use the inflator hose! On the other hand, I dived a Frog Indigo with a single cylinder and loved it. Never had to touch the inflator hose for dumping air or beak trim! So the question is, do I persevere with the Explorer and learn to dive properly? or Do I consider a 40lb Explorer? Or (being aware of the cylinder vs wing length issue) do I consider 40lb Evolve/50lb Frog Midnight? Thanks Stathis

May 21st, 2008, 12:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
graham_hk(Offline) Pinoy ako pinoy Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: here, there and everywhere Posts: 779	Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis) Hi Everybody, Staraight from the start this feels like ''If you cannot Drive, blame the Car'' but although I have tried to read previous related threads, I still need your input! I dive Faber, double-12s with a 55lb Explorer wing and (occasionally) carry a 6lt ali deco bottle. In this configuration I find it difficult to dump air from the kidney valve. Even a slightly ''bum-up'' position doesn't help. The wing feels too floppy and big for me to reach and position the valve so to dump air effectively. Unless of course I go ''head-up'' and use the inflator hose! On the other hand, I dived a Frog Indigo with a single cylinder and loved it. Never had to touch the inflator hose for dumping air or beak trim! So the question is, do I persevere with the Explorer and learn to dive properly? or Do I consider a 40lb Explorer? Or (being aware of the cylinder vs wing length issue) do I consider 40lb Evolve/50lb Frog Midnight? Thanks Stathis Yep the 55lb wing is far to big for 12s - better suited to 8" tanks (15s, 18s and 104s etc) - so you will struggle a bit. The evolve makes dumping gas significantly easier. __________________ DIN caps and plugs with free world wide postage: www.dustcap.halcyon-hk.com

May 22nd, 2008, 12:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
MartyC(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Goathland, N Yorks. Posts: 146	Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis) Thanks everyone and one last question on the subject (if I may): Any thoughts on the choice between the 40lb Evolve and the 50lb Frog Midnight? How similar do hey feel underwater? Would the extra 10lb lift of the Frog bring the same problems to the 55lb Explorer? or should I take advantage of the cost-savings and put it towards the F-Word? Stathis, I can't comment on the H, but I have the F and its fine with 12's completely different to the large explorer and no problems with dumping air or the quailty so far. I'm not getting into the H vs F thing Marty __________________ IF only I could think of something witty to say!

May 22nd, 2008, 12:56 PM	#7 (permalink)
Alastair(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 693	Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis) Thanks everyone and one last question on the subject (if I may): Any thoughts on the choice between the 40lb Evolve and the 50lb Frog Midnight? How similar do hey feel underwater? Would the extra 10lb lift of the Frog bring the same problems to the 55lb Explorer? or should I take advantage of the cost-savings and put it towards the F-Word? Never dived the Frog stuff but I have 40lbs wing for 12's and use a 60lbs for 104's,18's,RB80. The 40 is certainly fine for 12's and a load of stages. The comment made about a donut shaped wing being a bit too long on faber 12's is actually very relevant. You can end up damaging the wing as its longer than the cylinders. Might be worth you borrowing the gear off someone to test it. Not sure when and where you are next diving but if you can meet up with someone it might be a good move. Cheers Al __________________ Helium is our friend - GI3

May 22nd, 2008, 01:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
MartyC(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Goathland, N Yorks. Posts: 146	Quote: (Originally Posted by Alastair) Never dived the Frog stuff but I have 40lbs wing for 12's and use a 60lbs for 104's,18's,RB80. The 40 is certainly fine for 12's and a load of stages. The comment made about a donut shaped wing being a bit too long on faber 12's is actually very relevant. You can end up damaging the wing as its longer than the cylinders. Might be worth you borrowing the gear off someone to test it. Not sure when and where you are next diving but if you can meet up with someone it might be a good move. Cheers Al Al I used my F wing with fabers without any issues __________________ IF only I could think of something witty to say!

May 21st, 2008, 12:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rob Forrest(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Sheffield, UK Posts: 23	Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis) So the question is......Do I consider a 40lb Explorer? Or (being aware of the cylinder vs wing length issue) do I consider 40lb Evolve/50lb Frog Midnight? Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis) The wing feels too floppy and big for me to reach and position the valve so to dump air effectively. Unless of course I go ''head-up'' and use the inflator hose! I think the consensus now is that the 55lb is too big for double 12s ?? I started of with a 55lb (explorer) on faber 12s and experienced the same issues as you are having. Then I borrowed a 40lb (explorer) and it was a different story Now I have a 40lb evolve and am really happy with that. Dumping gas is a lot easier - probably a combination of the wing and more experience! I've not had any issues with the evolve and length of fabers....

May 21st, 2008, 12:09 PM	#4 (permalink)
neilh (Online) Haemoglobin on the bus... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Barnsley, UK Posts: 1,900	Quote: (Originally Posted by Stathis) The wing feels too floppy and big Quote: (Originally Posted by Rob Forrest) I think the consensus now is that the 55lb is too big for double 12s ?? Yep - the 55 is definitely too big for 12s. A 40lb is the way to go. Quote: (Originally Posted by Rob Forrest) I've not had any issues with the evolve and length of fabers.... Likewise, although you do need to be more careful with the Evolve and Fabers. The Explorer is probably a slightly better size, but both work fine.

May 22nd, 2008, 11:37 AM	#5 (permalink)
Stathis(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: London Posts: 22	Thanks everyone and one last question on the subject (if I may): Any thoughts on the choice between the 40lb Evolve and the 50lb Frog Midnight? How similar do hey feel underwater? Would the extra 10lb lift of the Frog bring the same problems to the 55lb Explorer? or should I take advantage of the cost-savings and put it towards the F-Word?

May 22nd, 2008, 02:00 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mal Bridgeman(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Suffolk, UK Posts: 662	Perhaps you could try my 40lb Explorer on Saturday ..... we'll be there from about 11am HTH Mal __________________ Opinions and beliefs are correct at the time of posting but are subject to change without any notice or obligation on the part of the author.

May 22nd, 2008, 09:01 PM	#10 (permalink)
Icarusflies (Online) New Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Barcelona Posts: 201	A good tip from Clare from this forum was to pull the cord towards the sky while in trim...this directs air to the valve....I dive a 40lb explorer but you could try with your 50lb and see how it goes... Steve