Gloves and "DIR"

LCF · July 14th, 2007, 08:50 AM

On a local board, an argument is raging about gloves. Someone who ought to have credentials (he's a WKPP support diver) is insisting that dry gloves are not DIR, because they can fail in so many annoying to disastrous ways, and that only wet gloves (or in warm water, no gloves) are a DIR-acceptable strategy.

Strangely enough, some of the most senior DIR divers on the list disagree with him.

I pointed out that it is known that people vary in their reactivity to cold on their hands, and that for people with highly reactive blood vessels, wet gloves in cold water are going to result in numbness or pain, neither of which is desirable while diving.

I am wondering if anybody knows if there is an official "party line" about gloves, and if so, what the rationale is. Since my GUE instructor uses dry gloves, I somehow doubt they are anathema . . .

**zuckerkringel** · July 14th, 2007, 09:09 AM

Hello,

see this: http://www.gue.com/Expeditions/Norway05/gallery.html

Best, Hubsi from Vienna

Mal Bridgeman · July 14th, 2007, 10:13 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF)

On a local board, an argument is raging about gloves. Someone who ought to have credentials (he's a WKPP support diver) is insisting that dry gloves are not DIR, because they can fail in so many annoying to disastrous ways, and that only wet gloves (or in warm water, no gloves) are a DIR-acceptable strategy.

Strangely enough, some of the most senior DIR divers on the list disagree with him.

I pointed out that it is known that people vary in their reactivity to cold on their hands, and that for people with highly reactive blood vessels, wet gloves in cold water are going to result in numbness or pain, neither of which is desirable while diving.

I am wondering if anybody knows if there is an official "party line" about gloves, and if so, what the rationale is. Since my GUE instructor uses dry gloves, I somehow doubt they are anathema . . .

This "WKPP support diver" and the "senior DIR divers" presumably don't dive in sub 5degC water temps do they? If they did I am sure they would change their opinion.

Unfortunately that type of dogma does little to promote the sensible/safe approach to scuba diving which is what I believe DIR to be.

Mal

**neilh** · July 14th, 2007, 10:51 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF)

On a local board, an argument is raging about gloves. Someone who ought to have credentials (he's a WKPP support diver) is insisting that dry gloves are not DIR, because they can fail in so many annoying to disastrous ways, and that only wet gloves (or in warm water, no gloves) are a DIR-acceptable strategy.

I would have thought the "DIR" answer is for appropriate gloves for you and the conditions. In wet gloves through the colder months in the UK I lose the feeling in my fingers and can't work the boltsnaps properly so for me dry gloves mean that I can function on a dive.

I also wear them through the summer (with a thinner lining) because even if they get holed and flood they aren't going to be unbearable and it means I'm used to the same piece of kit for all dives.

I can see where he might be coming from in that dry gloves have far more failure points than wet gloves, but I'm not sure it's that simple

Mark Chase · July 14th, 2007, 11:03 AM

Its an interesting point.

If you're committing to a big dive is it better to use a glove that is inherently warm to X level or to use a warmer glove that introduces a significant failure point?

One assumes in the temps where dry gloves are necessary it would be disastrous to flood a glove and end up with loosing the use of a hand.

I got in a tangle on a 6c dive once and my hands were so numb I dropped my knife several times trying to cut my self free. This was a full size knife and fortunately it was on a lanyard. I was on a return to shot dive and I felt cold but turned the dive much too late as by the time i got back to the shot I had lost feeling in both hands. It was only a 25m dive and i was in a fair bit of trouble with the entanglement. I abandoned the goody bag I had been carrying and I had to ascend the line with my arm wrapped round it because i couldn't use my hands.

After this i considered dry gloves but this would only be an advantage if i could quickly abort the dive. If not a failure would be even more disastrous in those temps.

In a way I suppose the best thing to do is use removable dry gloves and have a set of 5mm mitts in the pocket in case of disaster.

Its what i would do but I don't know if it contravenes any DIR rules or not?

ATB

Mark Chase

coops · July 14th, 2007, 12:20 PM

DD

A saying I have heard many times is:
“Any fool can be cold”!

If that fool has not prepared well enough and is so cold that he/she can’t function sufficiently to assist you or themself in an emergency, then I would say that he/she is not DIR philosophy compliant and at some point will become a liability to the team.

Oh here’s another one:
“The right tools for the job”!

Coops

Henry · July 14th, 2007, 12:59 PM

Sorry, but this does not seem to be a very "necessary discussion". As pointed out previously, I can assure you that if the water is cold enough/the exposure is long enough, there are not many other feasible options than dry gloves.

The discussion in DIR-terms have rather been centered around "what kind of design reduce the added failure points and hazards of a flooded suit to the greatest extent possible".

david_1 · July 14th, 2007, 03:02 PM

I am supprised there has not been a beter answer yet.

heres my take on it. if the planed dive is only two hours long and it goes to shit and ends up at four hours it dont matter what you dive. when your suit floods it is not that long till you can surface.

two - four hours dives are short compared to some dives that are done. on these dives a flooded suit can be life threaternig because it takes too long to get to the surface and warmth. Its on these dives that some types of dry gloves are not used.

not used due to reduce risks involved thats all.

Now the real DIR clones will be along saying "one system for everything"
sorry dont have an answer.

David

Seydlitz · July 14th, 2007, 05:20 PM

More drivel...Because you dive under a "certain banner"...does it mean we lose our ability to use our common sense...No of course it doesn't....Dry/wet gloves are a tools in a box ..that you use when conditions dictate...Do you think the guys that dive in Baltic/Finland or The guys in ontario area would use wet gloves because some dude in florida in 24 deg water told them too.Think we all know the answer...

Andy

Digger · July 14th, 2007, 05:29 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Seydlitz)

More drivel...Because you dive under a "certain banner"...does it mean we lose our ability to use our common sense...No of course it doesn't....Dry/wet gloves are a tools in a box ..that you use when conditions dictate...Do you think the guys that dive in Baltic/Finland or The guys in ontario area would use wet gloves because some dude in florida in 24 deg water told them too.Think we all know the answer...

Andy

Doesn't stop the rest of you diving your gear a certain way on UK wrecks because some guy in a Florida cave told you to :D

I'd be more interested to hear a decent argument about whether to use drygloves with internal wrist seals or not etc., I presume we've covered that somewhere?

Digs.

July 14th, 2007, 08:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
LCF(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 622	Gloves and "DIR" On a local board, an argument is raging about gloves. Someone who ought to have credentials (he's a WKPP support diver) is insisting that dry gloves are not DIR, because they can fail in so many annoying to disastrous ways, and that only wet gloves (or in warm water, no gloves) are a DIR-acceptable strategy. Strangely enough, some of the most senior DIR divers on the list disagree with him. I pointed out that it is known that people vary in their reactivity to cold on their hands, and that for people with highly reactive blood vessels, wet gloves in cold water are going to result in numbness or pain, neither of which is desirable while diving. I am wondering if anybody knows if there is an official "party line" about gloves, and if so, what the rationale is. Since my GUE instructor uses dry gloves, I somehow doubt they are anathema . . . __________________ check out www.divematrix.com "So, it's a good thing to always do the drills the same way . . . but in real life you need to act the right way, whatever that happens to be." LauNar

July 14th, 2007, 10:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
Mal Bridgeman(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Suffolk, UK Posts: 662	Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF) On a local board, an argument is raging about gloves. Someone who ought to have credentials (he's a WKPP support diver) is insisting that dry gloves are not DIR, because they can fail in so many annoying to disastrous ways, and that only wet gloves (or in warm water, no gloves) are a DIR-acceptable strategy. Strangely enough, some of the most senior DIR divers on the list disagree with him. I pointed out that it is known that people vary in their reactivity to cold on their hands, and that for people with highly reactive blood vessels, wet gloves in cold water are going to result in numbness or pain, neither of which is desirable while diving. I am wondering if anybody knows if there is an official "party line" about gloves, and if so, what the rationale is. Since my GUE instructor uses dry gloves, I somehow doubt they are anathema . . . This "WKPP support diver" and the "senior DIR divers" presumably don't dive in sub 5degC water temps do they? If they did I am sure they would change their opinion. Unfortunately that type of dogma does little to promote the sensible/safe approach to scuba diving which is what I believe DIR to be. Mal __________________ Opinions and beliefs are correct at the time of posting but are subject to change without any notice or obligation on the part of the author.

July 14th, 2007, 11:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 905	Its an interesting point. If you're committing to a big dive is it better to use a glove that is inherently warm to X level or to use a warmer glove that introduces a significant failure point? One assumes in the temps where dry gloves are necessary it would be disastrous to flood a glove and end up with loosing the use of a hand. I got in a tangle on a 6c dive once and my hands were so numb I dropped my knife several times trying to cut my self free. This was a full size knife and fortunately it was on a lanyard. I was on a return to shot dive and I felt cold but turned the dive much too late as by the time i got back to the shot I had lost feeling in both hands. It was only a 25m dive and i was in a fair bit of trouble with the entanglement. I abandoned the goody bag I had been carrying and I had to ascend the line with my arm wrapped round it because i couldn't use my hands. After this i considered dry gloves but this would only be an advantage if i could quickly abort the dive. If not a failure would be even more disastrous in those temps. In a way I suppose the best thing to do is use removable dry gloves and have a set of 5mm mitts in the pocket in case of disaster. Its what i would do but I don't know if it contravenes any DIR rules or not? ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration diver in the village

July 14th, 2007, 12:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
coops(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Oman Posts: 62	Thermal Protection DD A saying I have heard many times is: “Any fool can be cold”! If that fool has not prepared well enough and is so cold that he/she can’t function sufficiently to assist you or themself in an emergency, then I would say that he/she is not DIR philosophy compliant and at some point will become a liability to the team. Oh here’s another one: “The right tools for the job”! Coops

July 14th, 2007, 12:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Henry(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 1	Gloves and "DIR" Sorry, but this does not seem to be a very "necessary discussion". As pointed out previously, I can assure you that if the water is cold enough/the exposure is long enough, there are not many other feasible options than dry gloves. The discussion in DIR-terms have rather been centered around "what kind of design reduce the added failure points and hazards of a flooded suit to the greatest extent possible".

July 14th, 2007, 09:09 AM	#2 (permalink)
zuckerkringel(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Austria Posts: 82	Hello, see this: http://www.gue.com/Expeditions/Norway05/gallery.html Best, Hubsi from Vienna

July 14th, 2007, 10:51 AM	#4 (permalink)
neilh(Offline) Haemoglobin on the bus... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Barnsley, UK Posts: 1,900	Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF) On a local board, an argument is raging about gloves. Someone who ought to have credentials (he's a WKPP support diver) is insisting that dry gloves are not DIR, because they can fail in so many annoying to disastrous ways, and that only wet gloves (or in warm water, no gloves) are a DIR-acceptable strategy. I would have thought the "DIR" answer is for appropriate gloves for you and the conditions. In wet gloves through the colder months in the UK I lose the feeling in my fingers and can't work the boltsnaps properly so for me dry gloves mean that I can function on a dive. I also wear them through the summer (with a thinner lining) because even if they get holed and flood they aren't going to be unbearable and it means I'm used to the same piece of kit for all dives. I can see where he might be coming from in that dry gloves have far more failure points than wet gloves, but I'm not sure it's that simple

July 14th, 2007, 03:02 PM	#8 (permalink)
david_1(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 295	I am supprised there has not been a beter answer yet. heres my take on it. if the planed dive is only two hours long and it goes to shit and ends up at four hours it dont matter what you dive. when your suit floods it is not that long till you can surface. two - four hours dives are short compared to some dives that are done. on these dives a flooded suit can be life threaternig because it takes too long to get to the surface and warmth. Its on these dives that some types of dry gloves are not used. not used due to reduce risks involved thats all. Now the real DIR clones will be along saying "one system for everything" sorry dont have an answer. David

July 14th, 2007, 05:20 PM	#9 (permalink)
Seydlitz(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Never Far from a good Belgian Beer and a Crackwh*re Posts: 455	common sense More drivel...Because you dive under a "certain banner"...does it mean we lose our ability to use our common sense...No of course it doesn't....Dry/wet gloves are a tools in a box ..that you use when conditions dictate...Do you think the guys that dive in Baltic/Finland or The guys in ontario area would use wet gloves because some dude in florida in 24 deg water told them too.Think we all know the answer... Andy

July 14th, 2007, 05:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
Digger(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Midlands Posts: 122	Quote: (Originally Posted by Seydlitz) More drivel...Because you dive under a "certain banner"...does it mean we lose our ability to use our common sense...No of course it doesn't....Dry/wet gloves are a tools in a box ..that you use when conditions dictate...Do you think the guys that dive in Baltic/Finland or The guys in ontario area would use wet gloves because some dude in florida in 24 deg water told them too.Think we all know the answer... Andy Doesn't stop the rest of you diving your gear a certain way on UK wrecks because some guy in a Florida cave told you to :D I'd be more interested to hear a decent argument about whether to use drygloves with internal wrist seals or not etc., I presume we've covered that somewhere? Digs.