DIR Rebreather - Thoughts

onthetrain · February 2nd, 2007, 09:21 PM

Hi all,
I thought long and hard about posting this post on this forum as I am a bit concerned that I may get accussed of trolling.

As many of you know I almost signed up to do a Fundies course last year but having got into Trimix diving I decided my tool of choice was going to be the Closed Circuit Rebreather.

However, I have retained an interest in DIR and am really interested in many of its key principles.

Whilst at Scapa last year on a YD trip several of the people on the boat discussed the possibility of standardisation for rebreather divers.

I saw this on rebreather world tonight

DIRrebreather - Rebreather DIR scuba diving philosophy for CCR (Closed Circuit) and SCR (Semi Closed Circuit) Rebreather divers

It would seem that Cedric Verdier a very highly regarded tech & cave diver is involved in this. If a course of this nature ran in the UK I would really be interested in it. Cedric dives very extreme dives on a Megladon rebreather. His current project is a 210M+ cave project in thailand, so he knows a thing or two about diving

Having had discussions in person with some members of this forum about rebreathers a couple of weeks ago I know that at least some people here would consider CCR if it were the right tool, in the right circumstances for the job.

So, What do you guys think? What are the pro's and cons of such a (DIR) system for RB divers. If this course had the support of GUE/WKPP would you OC DIR divers be interested?

Please - no petty anti rebreather rants. I am well aware that some of you will think CCR is dangerous. I agree that it is if used incorrectly, no need to go down that road.

As said above I wold love to do a DIR Rebreather course, so long as I can stay on my CCR & VR3

Janos · February 2nd, 2007, 09:49 PM

I think a few of us are of the same thought, but I don't think it's going to happen soo.

However there have been a couple of threads on DIR-X about this already. It might be worth a quick search.

Janos

rjack · February 2nd, 2007, 10:00 PM

Nevermind the RB, the VR3 ain't very DIR either!

Actually I'm not very RB knowledgable but manual control of the O2 injection ala the KISS units seems like the closest fit to DIR principles in the CCR universe.

onthetrain · February 2nd, 2007, 10:07 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack)

Nevermind the RB, the VR3 ain't very DIR either!

Actually I'm not very RB knowledgable but manual control of the O2 injection ala the KISS units seems like the closest fit to DIR principles in the CCR universe.

Actually, I believe one of the new software versions of the VR3 will have a screen saver that displays a constantly updated average depth display so that you can work out your DOTF and use the VR3 as a backup

This post is not a wind up.

Mark Chase · February 2nd, 2007, 10:33 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by onthetrain)

Actually, I believe one of the new software versions of the VR3 will have a screen saver that displays a constantly updated average depth display so that you can work out your DOTF and use the VR3 as a backup

This post is not a wind up.

All VR3s do this already but its not a screen saver.

Cedric and mike Gadd might just be the new GI3 and JJ.

And thats not a wind up either. CCR be it ECCR or MCCR is the only way forward in exploration or deep diving.

ATB

Mark Chase

**Alastair** · February 2nd, 2007, 11:06 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

And thats not a wind up either. CCR be it ECCR or MCCR is the only way forward in exploration or deep diving.

ATB

Mark Chase

First chance I've had to login for ages and what do I find but Chasey talking bollox!

What's the WKPP done this year? Or how about DIR Mexico? Or the Norway expedition? Sounds like plenty of deep diving/exploration without an ECCR or an MCCR in sight.

If you want to come up with a standarised system for rebreathers that make it safer then go for it. But please pick another name. DIR means weighing up the risks vs the rewards and making the safest decision. If you need more gas than OC then the RB-80 is proven technology. The balance of risk for CCR makes them impractical for DIR as they stand today.

If I reach the limits of OC then RB80 is the right path. If you can't pass Tech-2 and the RB80 course then you're not experienced enough to use one hence you've not reached the limits of OC

Cheers
Al

Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC · February 2nd, 2007, 11:30 PM

This is a very interesting subject and for sure worth opening again. I am sure that DIR principles can be used to enhance RB saftey and extend a divers ability to explore.

Start it up and we will discuss it.

I notice that whenever this is opened, some people come out with the "I am not worthy" song.
Although I personally think the RB80 is great, I also like the idea of other enhancments to CCR

Mark Chase · February 2nd, 2007, 11:55 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Alastair)

First chance I've had to login for ages and what do I find but Chasey talking bollox!

What's the WKPP done this year? Or how about DIR Mexico? Or the Norway expedition? Sounds like plenty of deep diving/exploration without an ECCR or an MCCR in sight.

If you want to come up with a standarised system for rebreathers that make it safer then go for it. But please pick another name. DIR means weighing up the risks vs the rewards and making the safest decision. If you need more gas than OC then the RB-80 is proven technology. The balance of risk for CCR makes them impractical for DIR as they stand today.

If I reach the limits of OC then RB80 is the right path. If you can't pass Tech-2 and the RB80 course then you're not experienced enough to use one hence you've not reached the limits of OC

Cheers
Al

How many 60m+ dives can you afford to do in a year M8 at £150+ per dive

I have 32 booked for 2007. How many have you got booked?

Game over I win

Thats the problem. Its has nothing to do with major dives like WKPP are pulling off. The fact remains normal divers like you and me are limited by such simple stuff as money. I pay £15 in gas, lime and batteries to do a 60M dive or a 160m dive and you by comparison pay hundreds of pounds.

As an OC diver i could afford to do a handful of 60-100m dives in a year. As a CCR diver haven't pre booked a single dive shallower than 60m for May onward in 2007

We are diving new wrecks and exploring new areas. This is the second golden age. The first was the opening up of trimix depths to OC divers. Now we have access to the areas where logistically the OC divers couldn't go. As a result there is still untouched stuff in the 60 -100m range in the channel. Soon any new discoveries will be 100M+ or rely on special research and investment like shallow discoveries do now.

As for cave diving? DrJM is pushing 200m deep caves with another successful dive to 190m recently. Cedric and Dr Mike are pushing 200m in new caves in Thailand and they are presently involved in diving a 210m deep sub

All on CCR with very very small support teems.

Can you point me at any projects that are being carried out to similar depths on OC or PSCR?

WKPP and similar projects have monster support teems and massive preparation. Whilst this all sounds cool the truth is a ECCR with redundant ECCR back up could pull off the same dives with a massive reduction in logistics.

So on one hand we have a massive operation thats expensive and demands huge manpower and on the other we have a system thats cheep, logistically light weight and requires greatly reduced manpower to succeed.

Guess who wins?

ATB

Mark Chase

Mark Chase · February 3rd, 2007, 12:03 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC)

This is a very interesting subject and for sure worth opening again. I am sure that DIR principles can be used to enhance RB saftey and extend a divers ability to explore.

Start it up and we will discuss it.

I notice that whenever this is opened, some people come out with the "I am not worthy" song.
Although I personally think the RB80 is great, I also like the idea of other enhancments to CCR

I completely agree.

DIR consider other OC practices ill trained and under skilled so why not apply the same logic to CCR. Its a great shame that GUE set the bar for SCR so far out of reach of every day diving. i think there should be Tech1 then you have the choice between Tech2 OC and Tech 2 SCR.

Like many things DIR they are not the sole ownership of the brand. Its GUE diving not DIR diving if the truth be known.

DIR is now synonymous with teem diving discipline and standards. As a result DIRebreather diving is a complement to the achievements of GUE.

I only wish GUE had done it themselves.

ATB

Mark Chase

*Clare* · February 3rd, 2007, 12:10 AM

I'm going to have a very limited amount of Patience with this thread if it just ends up going into a CCR v OC thread - it costs less therefore it is right - we've done it to death. Diving air would be cheaper than Trimix too - and I don't choose to do that either.

If any of you want to dive CCR by all means do so - just don't clog up a DIR board with these views - there is another board which you can sing the praises of your units on as much as you like - Rebreather World - Rebreathers for Scuba Diving - the next step. I'm not aware that members of this board constantly start threads on RBW to discuss OC DIR diving - so please afford us the same courtesy.

The principle suggestion being put forward is interesting - is it possible to develop a standardised approach and procedures for CCR rebreathers? Of course it is. Will it happen? I doubt it - far too much ego involved.

And I'm with Al - find another name - CCR divers have moaned about the DIR name for long enough - seems a bit rich to adopt it now

February 2nd, 2007, 09:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
Janos(Offline) "Two Sheds" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 412	I think a few of us are of the same thought, but I don't think it's going to happen soo. However there have been a couple of threads on DIR-X about this already. It might be worth a quick search. Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves DO of Hellfins

February 2nd, 2007, 10:33 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 1,069	Quote: (Originally Posted by onthetrain) Actually, I believe one of the new software versions of the VR3 will have a screen saver that displays a constantly updated average depth display so that you can work out your DOTF and use the VR3 as a backup This post is not a wind up. All VR3s do this already but its not a screen saver. Cedric and mike Gadd might just be the new GI3 and JJ. And thats not a wind up either. CCR be it ECCR or MCCR is the only way forward in exploration or deep diving. ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration/Hammer head/KISS/rEvo/JJ diver in the village www.ourturkishvilla.co.uk

February 2nd, 2007, 11:06 PM	#6 (permalink)
Alastair(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 752	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) And thats not a wind up either. CCR be it ECCR or MCCR is the only way forward in exploration or deep diving. ATB Mark Chase First chance I've had to login for ages and what do I find but Chasey talking bollox! What's the WKPP done this year? Or how about DIR Mexico? Or the Norway expedition? Sounds like plenty of deep diving/exploration without an ECCR or an MCCR in sight. If you want to come up with a standarised system for rebreathers that make it safer then go for it. But please pick another name. DIR means weighing up the risks vs the rewards and making the safest decision. If you need more gas than OC then the RB-80 is proven technology. The balance of risk for CCR makes them impractical for DIR as they stand today. If I reach the limits of OC then RB80 is the right path. If you can't pass Tech-2 and the RB80 course then you're not experienced enough to use one hence you've not reached the limits of OC Cheers Al __________________ Helium is our friend - GI3

February 2nd, 2007, 11:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC (Online) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: hurghada Posts: 1,078	This is a very interesting subject and for sure worth opening again. I am sure that DIR principles can be used to enhance RB saftey and extend a divers ability to explore. Start it up and we will discuss it. I notice that whenever this is opened, some people come out with the "I am not worthy" song. Although I personally think the RB80 is great, I also like the idea of other enhancments to CCR __________________ Life and Death, although stemming from one another, seem to conflict as stages of change. Ahmed Adly, www.deepvoyage.com Last edited by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC; February 2nd, 2007 at 11:33 PM..

February 2nd, 2007, 11:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 1,069	Quote: (Originally Posted by Alastair) First chance I've had to login for ages and what do I find but Chasey talking bollox! What's the WKPP done this year? Or how about DIR Mexico? Or the Norway expedition? Sounds like plenty of deep diving/exploration without an ECCR or an MCCR in sight. If you want to come up with a standarised system for rebreathers that make it safer then go for it. But please pick another name. DIR means weighing up the risks vs the rewards and making the safest decision. If you need more gas than OC then the RB-80 is proven technology. The balance of risk for CCR makes them impractical for DIR as they stand today. If I reach the limits of OC then RB80 is the right path. If you can't pass Tech-2 and the RB80 course then you're not experienced enough to use one hence you've not reached the limits of OC Cheers Al How many 60m+ dives can you afford to do in a year M8 at £150+ per dive I have 32 booked for 2007. How many have you got booked? Game over I win Thats the problem. Its has nothing to do with major dives like WKPP are pulling off. The fact remains normal divers like you and me are limited by such simple stuff as money. I pay £15 in gas, lime and batteries to do a 60M dive or a 160m dive and you by comparison pay hundreds of pounds. As an OC diver i could afford to do a handful of 60-100m dives in a year. As a CCR diver haven't pre booked a single dive shallower than 60m for May onward in 2007 We are diving new wrecks and exploring new areas. This is the second golden age. The first was the opening up of trimix depths to OC divers. Now we have access to the areas where logistically the OC divers couldn't go. As a result there is still untouched stuff in the 60 -100m range in the channel. Soon any new discoveries will be 100M+ or rely on special research and investment like shallow discoveries do now. As for cave diving? DrJM is pushing 200m deep caves with another successful dive to 190m recently. Cedric and Dr Mike are pushing 200m in new caves in Thailand and they are presently involved in diving a 210m deep sub All on CCR with very very small support teems. Can you point me at any projects that are being carried out to similar depths on OC or PSCR? WKPP and similar projects have monster support teems and massive preparation. Whilst this all sounds cool the truth is a ECCR with redundant ECCR back up could pull off the same dives with a massive reduction in logistics. So on one hand we have a massive operation thats expensive and demands huge manpower and on the other we have a system thats cheep, logistically light weight and requires greatly reduced manpower to succeed. Guess who wins? ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration/Hammer head/KISS/rEvo/JJ diver in the village www.ourturkishvilla.co.uk

February 2nd, 2007, 09:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
onthetrain(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Poole Posts: 11	Hi all, I thought long and hard about posting this post on this forum as I am a bit concerned that I may get accussed of trolling. As many of you know I almost signed up to do a Fundies course last year but having got into Trimix diving I decided my tool of choice was going to be the Closed Circuit Rebreather. However, I have retained an interest in DIR and am really interested in many of its key principles. Whilst at Scapa last year on a YD trip several of the people on the boat discussed the possibility of standardisation for rebreather divers. I saw this on rebreather world tonight DIRrebreather - Rebreather DIR scuba diving philosophy for CCR (Closed Circuit) and SCR (Semi Closed Circuit) Rebreather divers It would seem that Cedric Verdier a very highly regarded tech & cave diver is involved in this. If a course of this nature ran in the UK I would really be interested in it. Cedric dives very extreme dives on a Megladon rebreather. His current project is a 210M+ cave project in thailand, so he knows a thing or two about diving Having had discussions in person with some members of this forum about rebreathers a couple of weeks ago I know that at least some people here would consider CCR if it were the right tool, in the right circumstances for the job. So, What do you guys think? What are the pro's and cons of such a (DIR) system for RB divers. If this course had the support of GUE/WKPP would you OC DIR divers be interested? Please - no petty anti rebreather rants. I am well aware that some of you will think CCR is dangerous. I agree that it is if used incorrectly, no need to go down that road. As said above I wold love to do a DIR Rebreather course, so long as I can stay on my CCR & VR3

February 2nd, 2007, 10:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
rjack(Offline) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 976	Nevermind the RB, the VR3 ain't very DIR either! Actually I'm not very RB knowledgable but manual control of the O2 injection ala the KISS units seems like the closest fit to DIR principles in the CCR universe.

February 2nd, 2007, 10:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
onthetrain(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Poole Posts: 11	Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack) Nevermind the RB, the VR3 ain't very DIR either! Actually I'm not very RB knowledgable but manual control of the O2 injection ala the KISS units seems like the closest fit to DIR principles in the CCR universe. Actually, I believe one of the new software versions of the VR3 will have a screen saver that displays a constantly updated average depth display so that you can work out your DOTF and use the VR3 as a backup This post is not a wind up.

February 3rd, 2007, 12:03 AM	#9 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 1,069	Quote: (Originally Posted by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC) This is a very interesting subject and for sure worth opening again. I am sure that DIR principles can be used to enhance RB saftey and extend a divers ability to explore. Start it up and we will discuss it. I notice that whenever this is opened, some people come out with the "I am not worthy" song. Although I personally think the RB80 is great, I also like the idea of other enhancments to CCR I completely agree. DIR consider other OC practices ill trained and under skilled so why not apply the same logic to CCR. Its a great shame that GUE set the bar for SCR so far out of reach of every day diving. i think there should be Tech1 then you have the choice between Tech2 OC and Tech 2 SCR. Like many things DIR they are not the sole ownership of the brand. Its GUE diving not DIR diving if the truth be known. DIR is now synonymous with teem diving discipline and standards. As a result DIRebreather diving is a complement to the achievements of GUE. I only wish GUE had done it themselves. ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration/Hammer head/KISS/rEvo/JJ diver in the village www.ourturkishvilla.co.uk Last edited by Mark Chase; February 3rd, 2007 at 12:06 AM..

February 3rd, 2007, 12:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
Clare(Offline) GUE Instructor Site Admin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,839	I'm going to have a very limited amount of Patience with this thread if it just ends up going into a CCR v OC thread - it costs less therefore it is right - we've done it to death. Diving air would be cheaper than Trimix too - and I don't choose to do that either. If any of you want to dive CCR by all means do so - just don't clog up a DIR board with these views - there is another board which you can sing the praises of your units on as much as you like - Rebreather World - Rebreathers for Scuba Diving - the next step. I'm not aware that members of this board constantly start threads on RBW to discuss OC DIR diving - so please afford us the same courtesy. The principle suggestion being put forward is interesting - is it possible to develop a standardised approach and procedures for CCR rebreathers? Of course it is. Will it happen? I doubt it - far too much ego involved. And I'm with Al - find another name - CCR divers have moaned about the DIR name for long enough - seems a bit rich to adopt it now __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk Last edited by Clare; February 3rd, 2007 at 12:13 AM..