DIR Rebreather - Thoughts - Page 2

Mats Edenfeldt · February 2nd, 2007, 11:13 PM

You have a point here but..."DIR means weighing up the risks vs the rewards and making the safest decision". Its ALL in here risks vs the rewards. I for one is not willing to bet my life on one piece of equipment and to do it in the safest way possible, then you need the humongous support (for WKPP dives). Sure it can be done with a black box on you back but the point is safety.

Who wins then? And in the long run its not about winners or losers, the looser is always he/she who dies or get hurt and none of us want that to happen. But I personally thing the risk vs the reward is way to big without the support and with this type of equipment.

But I am happy that you have found the belief to be able to do the diving you do with the equipment you use.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

How many 60m+ dives can you afford to do in a year M8 at £150+ per dive

I have 32 booked for 2007. How many have you got booked?

Game over I win

Thats the problem. Its has nothing to do with major dives like WKPP are pulling off. The fact remains normal divers like you and me are limited by such simple stuff as money. I pay £15 in gas, lime and batteries to do a 60M dive or a 160m dive and you by comparison pay hundreds of pounds.

As an OC diver i could afford to do a handful of 60-100m dives in a year. As a CCR diver haven't pre booked a single dive shallower than 60m for May onward in 2007

We are diving new wrecks and exploring new areas. This is the second golden age. The first was the opening up of trimix depths to OC divers. Now we have access to the areas where logistically the OC divers couldn't go. As a result there is still untouched stuff in the 60 -100m range in the channel. Soon any new discoveries will be 100M+ or rely on special research and investment like shallow discoveries do now.

As for cave diving? DrJM is pushing 200m deep caves with another successful dive to 190m recently. Cedric and Dr Mike are pushing 200m in new caves in Thailand and they are presently involved in diving a 210m deep sub

All on CCR with very very small support teems.

Can you point me at any projects that are being carried out to similar depths on OC or PSCR?

WKPP and similar projects have monster support teems and massive preparation. Whilst this all sounds cool the truth is a ECCR with redundant ECCR back up could pull off the same dives with a massive reduction in logistics.

So on one hand we have a massive operation thats expensive and demands huge manpower and on the other we have a system thats cheep, logistically light weight and requires greatly reduced manpower to succeed.

Guess who wins?

ATB

Mark Chase

Mark Chase · February 2nd, 2007, 11:52 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill)

I'm going to have a very limited amount of Patience with this thread if it just ends up going into a CCR v OC thread - it costs less therefore it is right - we've done it to death. Diving air would be cheaper than Trimix too - and I don't choose to do that either.

If any of you want to dive CCR by all means do so - just don't clog up a DIR board with these views - there is another board which you can sing the praises of your units on as much as you like - Rebreather World - Rebreathers for Scuba Diving - the next step. I'm not aware that members of this board constantly start threads on RBW to discuss OC DIR diving - so please afford us the same courtesy.

The principle suggestion being put forward is interesting - is it possible to develop a standardized approach and procedures for CCR rebreathers? Of course it is. Will it happen? I doubt it - far too much ego involved.

And I'm with Al - find another name - CCR divers have moaned about the DIR name for long enough - seems a bit rich to adopt it now

Clare, just out of curiosity id be interested if you could paste a link to an anti DIR thread from RBW. I have been on RBW since day one and i don't remember one. D8bus is on RBW and he gets treated with a lot of respect. A recent thread on a WKPP Scr big push dive was given glowing praise i seem to remember.

We have Ex DIR divers on there and even one of JJs support divers who now dives an ECCR . We also have have many ED04 RB80 type divers.

Loads of CCR divers are interested in standardizing the rigs, gasses and procedures for CCR and we all look with respect to GUE/DIR for guidance on these issues or as a template for a future system.

GUE have decided CCR is not for them. Thats fine. At the time they made this decision the only ECCR on the market was the massively expensive $20K+ Mk15.5 the CS Lunar that was even more expensive or the old stile Classic YBOD.

Things have moved on since 1998 and I am confident that in the next ten years GUE will have a CCR in their portfolio. More than likely a duel KISS type MCCR unit.

In the mean time there are those among us who crave the DIR concept but who need a CCR to do the diving we do. Some fumbling attempts have been made to get DIR CCR off the ground but people like Cedric and Mike actually have the gravitas to pull it off.

As for the use of the DIR tag? It doesn't belong to GUE and its the accepted tag for standardized diving systems so why not.

ATB

Mark Chase

Mark Chase · February 3rd, 2007, 12:05 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by edenfeldt)

You have a point here but..."DIR means weighing up the risks vs the rewards and making the safest decision". Its ALL in here risks vs the rewards. I for one is not willing to bet my life on one piece of equipment and to do it in the safest way possible, then you need the humongous support (for WKPP dives). Sure it can be done with a black box on you back but the point is safety.

Who wins then? And in the long run its not about winners or losers, the looser is always he/she who dies or get hurt and none of us want that to happen. But I personally thing the risk vs the reward is way to big without the support and with this type of equipment.

But I am happy that you have found the belief to be able to do the diving you do with the equipment you use.

Whilst your concerns over old school CCR diving are totally justified IMHO, you have to consider the massive advancement in knowledge and safety in the past five years.

HUDS are now pretty much standard BOVs are widely accepted as necessary safety devices and the understanding of the working of the Galvanic 02 sensor is a scale of magnitude above what it was before Ammers first mentioned the phrase "current limited cell" way back in 2003.

Now there is a strong feeling that standardization and greatly improved teem diving practices would further enhance diver safety.

We look to GUE DIR for a model in this last area.

Whats wrong with that you should be flattered not offended.

Whilst there are CCR divers who just want the gizmo in the same way as there are DIR divers who just want to look like great at 6m in a puddle, you have to remember there are a lot of CCR divers out there for whom the technology opens up vast possibilities in diving that would otherwise be outside their reach.

ATB

Mark Chase

Mats Edenfeldt · February 3rd, 2007, 12:35 AM

As I said you have a point in this

Off course you can enhance the technique and the use of the team and the equipment even with the CCR. It is several year ago I last looked at CCR:s and I have no idea about the advances in the technology, but I would be surprised if we will find a CCR under the GUE/Halcyon roof within the next 10 years.

You can still do pretty amazing things with the RB80 and I am sure this will develop in to more advanced units in the future but still with the extreme simplicity it holds today. Maybe some hybrid of a CCR and a RB80…?!?!?

I am not offended by CCR divers or there interest in the type of team oriented diving that DIR stands for, its most welcome. The only thing I object to is the battle and the hard words between OC and CCR divers.

We need to get something straight right away and that is that this is two totally different types of diving and that the RB is primary a tool to get the job done that OC can not provide. I think that you are on thin is if you get the CCR just to do it “simple” and cheap and without fuss and all the stages. It still takes the care and the gas management to use it. Now we can talk about how we can adapt more of a DIR approach to CCR.

Use OC if it can be done on OC
Have enough gas to be able to bail out and do the remaining dive on OC
Team awareness, dive in team and use same gas and same equipment

Now this looks simple but now you have lost a bit of what a lot of CCR divers use the CCR for, small and cheep diving, not a lot of stages and so on and so on. Off course you can dive a CCR according to more of the DIR principle but then this is needed.

I bet you disagree

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Whilst your concerns over old school CCR diving are totally justified IMHO, you have to consider the massive advancement in knowledge and safety in the past five years.

HUDS are now pretty much standard BOVs are widely accepted as necessary safety devices and the understanding of the working of the Galvanic 02 sensor is a scale of magnitude above what it was before Ammers first mentioned the phrase "current limited cell" way back in 2003.

Now there is a strong feeling that standardization and greatly improved teem diving practices would further enhance diver safety.

We look to GUE DIR for a model in this last area.

Whats wrong with that you should be flattered not offended.

Whilst there are CCR divers who just want the gizmo in the same way as there are DIR divers who just want to look like great at 6m in a puddle, you have to remember there are a lot of CCR divers out there for whom the technology opens up vast possibilities in diving that would otherwise be outside their reach.

ATB

Mark Chase

Rubis · February 3rd, 2007, 07:14 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by edenfeldt)

As I said you have a point in this

Off course you can enhance the technique and the use of the team and the equipment even with the CCR. It is several year ago I last looked at CCR:s and I have no idea about the advances in the technology, but I would be surprised if we will find a CCR under the GUE/Halcyon roof within the next 10 years.

You can still do pretty amazing things with the RB80 and I am sure this will develop in to more advanced units in the future but still with the extreme simplicity it holds today. Maybe some hybrid of a CCR and a RB80…?!?!?

I am not offended by CCR divers or there interest in the type of team oriented diving that DIR stands for, its most welcome. The only thing I object to is the battle and the hard words between OC and CCR divers.

We need to get something straight right away and that is that this is two totally different types of diving and that the RB is primary a tool to get the job done that OC can not provide. I think that you are on thin is if you get the CCR just to do it “simple” and cheap and without fuss and all the stages. It still takes the care and the gas management to use it. Now we can talk about how we can adapt more of a DIR approach to CCR.

Use OC if it can be done on OC
Have enough gas to be able to bail out and do the remaining dive on OC
Team awareness, dive in team and use same gas and same equipment

Now this looks simple but now you have lost a bit of what a lot of CCR divers use the CCR for, small and cheep diving, not a lot of stages and so on and so on. Off course you can dive a CCR according to more of the DIR principle but then this is needed.

I bet you disagree

I agree ...

Moreover, if rebreathers were more reliable, one could bail out on a rebreather and not OC. Using CCR, that would mean to have very compact and light configurations. There are lots of caves over here, where you have to hike miles in a cave before getting to the water. That would be a super tool for exploration.

OK, back to reality ... We are still in 2007 and this has not happened ... Yet !

Cheers

Mark Chase · February 3rd, 2007, 09:38 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rubis)

I agree ...

Moreover, if rebreathers were more reliable, one could bail out on a rebreather and not OC. Using CCR, that would mean to have very compact and light configurations. There are lots of caves over here, where you have to hike miles in a cave before getting to the water. That would be a super tool for exploration.

OK, back to reality ... We are still in 2007 and this has not happened ... Yet !

Cheers

Your wrong it has

This side slung unit is not much bigger than an Ali 80

Bail out CCR

In use with an Inspo for a French cave dive

In use at the restriction at the entrance to the cave, note the side sliung configuration

There are also Twinsperations and you can now get twin Megs direct from the manufacturor.

Dr Mike Gad is in the process of building a Twin MCCR for exploration of caves past 200m in depth.

ATB

Mark Chase

***EBT*** · February 3rd, 2007, 09:39 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rubis)

OK, back to reality ... We are still in 2007 and this has not happened ... Yet !

Its not happened, or its not widely discussed on the internet because some people prefer to do, rather than talk

(no, its not me)

Onthetrain, if you're serious; Eau2 Technical diver training, cave diver training, trimix and rebreather courses in UK, Europe and World-wide, dont be put off by the website, use the contact option.

Regards,

/Zak

Rubis · February 3rd, 2007, 10:02 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Your wrong it has

Oh thank you ... Now the question is ... Is it reliable yet ?
Does it cover what said before by edenfeldt ?

But very interesting, thanks

PS: Nice pictures at Grand Goul

**Alastair** · February 3rd, 2007, 10:42 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

How many 60m+ dives can you afford to do in a year M8 at £150+ per dive

I have 32 booked for 2007. How many have you got booked?

Well without wanting to revist your ludicrous gas prices a 60m dive costs me about £60 so actually I can afford to do it as often as I have the time to go diving. Time is my limiting factor not money.

Quote: (Originally Posted by mark chase)

Game over I win

Possibly a darwin award at some point if you tox on PP02 of 2.5 but that's about it

Quote: (Originally Posted by mark chase)

Thats the problem. Its has nothing to do with major dives like WKPP are pulling off. The fact remains normal divers like you and me are limited by such simple stuff as money. I pay £15 in gas, lime and batteries to do a 60M dive or a 160m dive and you by comparison pay hundreds of pounds.

...

So my decision to what is the safest approach should actually be dictated by money? That's why your CCR diving is not DIR because you are choosing to accept risks based on the wrong reasons.

I'd encourage anyone to dive safely but for most the cost of the RB, maintenance, vr£'s, HUD's, upgrades etc means that the idea they are spending less money is laughable. In your case Mark with your rip-off mix merchant it may well does cost in with your 2nd hand RB etc. But it's a very small section of the dive community who that really applies to. Hell Fraser lives in Kent and he never pays more for gas than I do (might be a team approach creeping in there).

I find ascertions that CCR is the only way to go is a flawed argument.

Cheers
Al

Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC · February 3rd, 2007, 10:51 AM

Don't fight and get this thread closed to soon. I will dive with an inspiration diver this month who was trained by a DIRCCR diver

I will have some interesting photos and reviews to post.
This goes along with Marks "DIR dose not belong to GUE"

February 2nd, 2007, 11:13 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mats Edenfeldt(Offline) Cave is fun :) Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sweden - Stockholm Posts: 158	You have a point here but..."DIR means weighing up the risks vs the rewards and making the safest decision". Its ALL in here risks vs the rewards. I for one is not willing to bet my life on one piece of equipment and to do it in the safest way possible, then you need the humongous support (for WKPP dives). Sure it can be done with a black box on you back but the point is safety. Who wins then? And in the long run its not about winners or losers, the looser is always he/she who dies or get hurt and none of us want that to happen. But I personally thing the risk vs the reward is way to big without the support and with this type of equipment. But I am happy that you have found the belief to be able to do the diving you do with the equipment you use. Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) How many 60m+ dives can you afford to do in a year M8 at £150+ per dive I have 32 booked for 2007. How many have you got booked? Game over I win Thats the problem. Its has nothing to do with major dives like WKPP are pulling off. The fact remains normal divers like you and me are limited by such simple stuff as money. I pay £15 in gas, lime and batteries to do a 60M dive or a 160m dive and you by comparison pay hundreds of pounds. As an OC diver i could afford to do a handful of 60-100m dives in a year. As a CCR diver haven't pre booked a single dive shallower than 60m for May onward in 2007 We are diving new wrecks and exploring new areas. This is the second golden age. The first was the opening up of trimix depths to OC divers. Now we have access to the areas where logistically the OC divers couldn't go. As a result there is still untouched stuff in the 60 -100m range in the channel. Soon any new discoveries will be 100M+ or rely on special research and investment like shallow discoveries do now. As for cave diving? DrJM is pushing 200m deep caves with another successful dive to 190m recently. Cedric and Dr Mike are pushing 200m in new caves in Thailand and they are presently involved in diving a 210m deep sub All on CCR with very very small support teems. Can you point me at any projects that are being carried out to similar depths on OC or PSCR? WKPP and similar projects have monster support teems and massive preparation. Whilst this all sounds cool the truth is a ECCR with redundant ECCR back up could pull off the same dives with a massive reduction in logistics. So on one hand we have a massive operation thats expensive and demands huge manpower and on the other we have a system thats cheep, logistically light weight and requires greatly reduced manpower to succeed. Guess who wins? ATB Mark Chase __________________ GUE: DIR-Fundamentals, Cave 1, Cave 2 NAUI: Trimix 1, Technical diver, Instructor, DM, Wreck penetration, Oxygen service technician IANTD: Advanced Nitrox, Nitrox Various: Apeks tech, Poseidon tech "Doing it right really means to do it properly. No skimping and no compromises. It sounds easy enough but it is not - it requires balls of steel" Peter Steinhoff

February 2nd, 2007, 11:52 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 1,071	Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill) I'm going to have a very limited amount of Patience with this thread if it just ends up going into a CCR v OC thread - it costs less therefore it is right - we've done it to death. Diving air would be cheaper than Trimix too - and I don't choose to do that either. If any of you want to dive CCR by all means do so - just don't clog up a DIR board with these views - there is another board which you can sing the praises of your units on as much as you like - Rebreather World - Rebreathers for Scuba Diving - the next step. I'm not aware that members of this board constantly start threads on RBW to discuss OC DIR diving - so please afford us the same courtesy. The principle suggestion being put forward is interesting - is it possible to develop a standardized approach and procedures for CCR rebreathers? Of course it is. Will it happen? I doubt it - far too much ego involved. And I'm with Al - find another name - CCR divers have moaned about the DIR name for long enough - seems a bit rich to adopt it now Clare, just out of curiosity id be interested if you could paste a link to an anti DIR thread from RBW. I have been on RBW since day one and i don't remember one. D8bus is on RBW and he gets treated with a lot of respect. A recent thread on a WKPP Scr big push dive was given glowing praise i seem to remember. We have Ex DIR divers on there and even one of JJs support divers who now dives an ECCR . We also have have many ED04 RB80 type divers. Loads of CCR divers are interested in standardizing the rigs, gasses and procedures for CCR and we all look with respect to GUE/DIR for guidance on these issues or as a template for a future system. GUE have decided CCR is not for them. Thats fine. At the time they made this decision the only ECCR on the market was the massively expensive $20K+ Mk15.5 the CS Lunar that was even more expensive or the old stile Classic YBOD. Things have moved on since 1998 and I am confident that in the next ten years GUE will have a CCR in their portfolio. More than likely a duel KISS type MCCR unit. In the mean time there are those among us who crave the DIR concept but who need a CCR to do the diving we do. Some fumbling attempts have been made to get DIR CCR off the ground but people like Cedric and Mike actually have the gravitas to pull it off. As for the use of the DIR tag? It doesn't belong to GUE and its the accepted tag for standardized diving systems so why not. ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration/Hammer head/KISS/rEvo/JJ diver in the village www.ourturkishvilla.co.uk

February 3rd, 2007, 12:05 AM	#13 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 1,071	Quote: (Originally Posted by edenfeldt) You have a point here but..."DIR means weighing up the risks vs the rewards and making the safest decision". Its ALL in here risks vs the rewards. I for one is not willing to bet my life on one piece of equipment and to do it in the safest way possible, then you need the humongous support (for WKPP dives). Sure it can be done with a black box on you back but the point is safety. Who wins then? And in the long run its not about winners or losers, the looser is always he/she who dies or get hurt and none of us want that to happen. But I personally thing the risk vs the reward is way to big without the support and with this type of equipment. But I am happy that you have found the belief to be able to do the diving you do with the equipment you use. Whilst your concerns over old school CCR diving are totally justified IMHO, you have to consider the massive advancement in knowledge and safety in the past five years. HUDS are now pretty much standard BOVs are widely accepted as necessary safety devices and the understanding of the working of the Galvanic 02 sensor is a scale of magnitude above what it was before Ammers first mentioned the phrase "current limited cell" way back in 2003. Now there is a strong feeling that standardization and greatly improved teem diving practices would further enhance diver safety. We look to GUE DIR for a model in this last area. Whats wrong with that you should be flattered not offended. Whilst there are CCR divers who just want the gizmo in the same way as there are DIR divers who just want to look like great at 6m in a puddle, you have to remember there are a lot of CCR divers out there for whom the technology opens up vast possibilities in diving that would otherwise be outside their reach. ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration/Hammer head/KISS/rEvo/JJ diver in the village www.ourturkishvilla.co.uk

February 3rd, 2007, 12:35 AM	#14 (permalink)
Mats Edenfeldt(Offline) Cave is fun :) Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sweden - Stockholm Posts: 158	As I said you have a point in this Off course you can enhance the technique and the use of the team and the equipment even with the CCR. It is several year ago I last looked at CCR:s and I have no idea about the advances in the technology, but I would be surprised if we will find a CCR under the GUE/Halcyon roof within the next 10 years. You can still do pretty amazing things with the RB80 and I am sure this will develop in to more advanced units in the future but still with the extreme simplicity it holds today. Maybe some hybrid of a CCR and a RB80…?!?!? I am not offended by CCR divers or there interest in the type of team oriented diving that DIR stands for, its most welcome. The only thing I object to is the battle and the hard words between OC and CCR divers. We need to get something straight right away and that is that this is two totally different types of diving and that the RB is primary a tool to get the job done that OC can not provide. I think that you are on thin is if you get the CCR just to do it “simple” and cheap and without fuss and all the stages. It still takes the care and the gas management to use it. Now we can talk about how we can adapt more of a DIR approach to CCR. Use OC if it can be done on OC Have enough gas to be able to bail out and do the remaining dive on OC Team awareness, dive in team and use same gas and same equipment Now this looks simple but now you have lost a bit of what a lot of CCR divers use the CCR for, small and cheep diving, not a lot of stages and so on and so on. Off course you can dive a CCR according to more of the DIR principle but then this is needed. I bet you disagree Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Whilst your concerns over old school CCR diving are totally justified IMHO, you have to consider the massive advancement in knowledge and safety in the past five years. HUDS are now pretty much standard BOVs are widely accepted as necessary safety devices and the understanding of the working of the Galvanic 02 sensor is a scale of magnitude above what it was before Ammers first mentioned the phrase "current limited cell" way back in 2003. Now there is a strong feeling that standardization and greatly improved teem diving practices would further enhance diver safety. We look to GUE DIR for a model in this last area. Whats wrong with that you should be flattered not offended. Whilst there are CCR divers who just want the gizmo in the same way as there are DIR divers who just want to look like great at 6m in a puddle, you have to remember there are a lot of CCR divers out there for whom the technology opens up vast possibilities in diving that would otherwise be outside their reach. ATB Mark Chase __________________ GUE: DIR-Fundamentals, Cave 1, Cave 2 NAUI: Trimix 1, Technical diver, Instructor, DM, Wreck penetration, Oxygen service technician IANTD: Advanced Nitrox, Nitrox Various: Apeks tech, Poseidon tech "Doing it right really means to do it properly. No skimping and no compromises. It sounds easy enough but it is not - it requires balls of steel" Peter Steinhoff

February 3rd, 2007, 07:14 AM	#15 (permalink)
Rubis(Offline) cave deprived and Kissed Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Broadway, (lost in Central NC, USA far far way from Caves SIGH !!!) Posts: 322	Quote: (Originally Posted by edenfeldt) As I said you have a point in this Off course you can enhance the technique and the use of the team and the equipment even with the CCR. It is several year ago I last looked at CCR:s and I have no idea about the advances in the technology, but I would be surprised if we will find a CCR under the GUE/Halcyon roof within the next 10 years. You can still do pretty amazing things with the RB80 and I am sure this will develop in to more advanced units in the future but still with the extreme simplicity it holds today. Maybe some hybrid of a CCR and a RB80…?!?!? I am not offended by CCR divers or there interest in the type of team oriented diving that DIR stands for, its most welcome. The only thing I object to is the battle and the hard words between OC and CCR divers. We need to get something straight right away and that is that this is two totally different types of diving and that the RB is primary a tool to get the job done that OC can not provide. I think that you are on thin is if you get the CCR just to do it “simple” and cheap and without fuss and all the stages. It still takes the care and the gas management to use it. Now we can talk about how we can adapt more of a DIR approach to CCR. Use OC if it can be done on OC Have enough gas to be able to bail out and do the remaining dive on OC Team awareness, dive in team and use same gas and same equipment Now this looks simple but now you have lost a bit of what a lot of CCR divers use the CCR for, small and cheep diving, not a lot of stages and so on and so on. Off course you can dive a CCR according to more of the DIR principle but then this is needed. I bet you disagree I agree ... Moreover, if rebreathers were more reliable, one could bail out on a rebreather and not OC. Using CCR, that would mean to have very compact and light configurations. There are lots of caves over here, where you have to hike miles in a cave before getting to the water. That would be a super tool for exploration. OK, back to reality ... We are still in 2007 and this has not happened ... Yet ! Cheers __________________ Petition against M26 Last edited by Rubis; February 3rd, 2007 at 07:36 AM..

February 3rd, 2007, 09:38 AM	#16 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 1,071	Quote: (Originally Posted by Rubis) I agree ... Moreover, if rebreathers were more reliable, one could bail out on a rebreather and not OC. Using CCR, that would mean to have very compact and light configurations. There are lots of caves over here, where you have to hike miles in a cave before getting to the water. That would be a super tool for exploration. OK, back to reality ... We are still in 2007 and this has not happened ... Yet ! Cheers Your wrong it has This side slung unit is not much bigger than an Ali 80 Bail out CCR In use with an Inspo for a French cave dive In use at the restriction at the entrance to the cave, note the side sliung configuration There are also Twinsperations and you can now get twin Megs direct from the manufacturor. Dr Mike Gad is in the process of building a Twin MCCR for exploration of caves past 200m in depth. ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration/Hammer head/KISS/rEvo/JJ diver in the village www.ourturkishvilla.co.uk Last edited by Mark Chase; February 3rd, 2007 at 09:41 AM..

February 3rd, 2007, 09:39 AM	#17 (permalink)
*EBT*(Offline) Just another crouton... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Brighton Posts: 527	Quote: (Originally Posted by Rubis) OK, back to reality ... We are still in 2007 and this has not happened ... Yet ! Its not happened, or its not widely discussed on the internet because some people prefer to do, rather than talk (no, its not me) Onthetrain, if you're serious; Eau2 Technical diver training, cave diver training, trimix and rebreather courses in UK, Europe and World-wide, dont be put off by the website, use the contact option. Regards, /Zak

February 3rd, 2007, 10:02 AM	#18 (permalink)
Rubis(Offline) cave deprived and Kissed Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Broadway, (lost in Central NC, USA far far way from Caves SIGH !!!) Posts: 322	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Your wrong it has Oh thank you ... Now the question is ... Is it reliable yet ? Does it cover what said before by edenfeldt ? But very interesting, thanks PS: Nice pictures at Grand Goul __________________ Petition against M26 Last edited by Rubis; February 3rd, 2007 at 10:05 AM..

February 3rd, 2007, 10:42 AM	#19 (permalink)
Alastair(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 771	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) How many 60m+ dives can you afford to do in a year M8 at £150+ per dive I have 32 booked for 2007. How many have you got booked? Well without wanting to revist your ludicrous gas prices a 60m dive costs me about £60 so actually I can afford to do it as often as I have the time to go diving. Time is my limiting factor not money. Quote: (Originally Posted by mark chase) Game over I win Possibly a darwin award at some point if you tox on PP02 of 2.5 but that's about it Quote: (Originally Posted by mark chase) Thats the problem. Its has nothing to do with major dives like WKPP are pulling off. The fact remains normal divers like you and me are limited by such simple stuff as money. I pay £15 in gas, lime and batteries to do a 60M dive or a 160m dive and you by comparison pay hundreds of pounds. ... So my decision to what is the safest approach should actually be dictated by money? That's why your CCR diving is not DIR because you are choosing to accept risks based on the wrong reasons. I'd encourage anyone to dive safely but for most the cost of the RB, maintenance, vr£'s, HUD's, upgrades etc means that the idea they are spending less money is laughable. In your case Mark with your rip-off mix merchant it may well does cost in with your 2nd hand RB etc. But it's a very small section of the dive community who that really applies to. Hell Fraser lives in Kent and he never pays more for gas than I do (might be a team approach creeping in there). I find ascertions that CCR is the only way to go is a flawed argument. Cheers Al __________________ Helium is our friend - GI3

February 3rd, 2007, 10:51 AM	#20 (permalink)
Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: hurghada Posts: 1,100	Don't fight and get this thread closed to soon. I will dive with an inspiration diver this month who was trained by a DIRCCR diver I will have some interesting photos and reviews to post. This goes along with Marks "DIR dose not belong to GUE" __________________ Life and Death, although stemming from one another, seem to conflict as stages of change. Ahmed Adly, www.deepvoyage.com