samkin(Offline)

Several weeks after I had intended to do so I finally find myself asking for some thoughts / advice, and possibly some help.

I've been diving with one of the original style Pioneer 36's for 4 1/2 years and am finally ready to make the move to bring in twins to my diving. Along with Rob H I did a twins familiarisation with Mark Powell earlier in the year which I found really useful both from a skills and a general familiarity point of view. I was also fortunate enough to be able to try Rob's new evolve 40 for my second dive.

Being very comfortable with the full loop of the Pioneer when the evolve and the torus came out last year (it was only last year wasn't it?) they immediately caught my eye and my interest because of their similarities, of being a full loop, with the pioneer as I was beginning to look towards moving to twins.

There are of course lots of other DIR style wings designed for twins around with many very happy users... but the evolve has had that draw on me for some time. It also does seem to have become a very popular wing amongst the UK crowd as well.

At the same time I had been wanting not to dive blindly in and had wanted to try and try a few wings before parting with any money! My not uncommon lack of actually getting things organised looks to have most likely prevented this as the point at which the need to have the kit rapidly approaches as I head up to Scapa in 5 weeks. (on Stormdrift 1st week October)


I would appreciate any views from those who have the evolve, particularly those who also use the single wings as well (or did so before going for twins). Good or bad as though most seem to have really liked it, some have not.

Also views on cyliders would be appreciated. The plan has been for me to borrow a set of fabers for the trip. However both the sets that were/are possibilities within my club are going to be out of O2 service by October. These can of course be cleaned, but both the owners had intended to leave them until the spring when our club does a big batch of cylinder testing/cleaning and getting them cleaned may not be the easiest thing to arrange in time.

At the same time I know that I will have to get my own set for next year. But what? I know that the evolve favours the longer (and heavier) Heisers/Euros over the fabers. Are people who started diving an evolve with fabers still diving with them or are people gradually moving over to the H/E's? I know Claire at least started with fabers but I wondered if what I saw at Vobster might not have been fabers?
I have concerns over the Heisers and Euros both in terms of the length and their weight. I'm not that big, just under 5'5", nor that strong really. I don't know how I might cope with them? Mark Powell made a very valid point on the course that with my height the twin 10's we were using seemed a very good match. Given that my club mates who are of a DIR/DIS view all dive with 12's and I want to move down the GUE route I believe that 12's are the right size to go for.

Strength I can work on, height unfortunately I can't. I'm not the only shorter diver though so how do others cope with the length and weight of the Heisers/Euro's?


So it comes down to the fact that I think I am virtually out of time to try wings before I have to make a decision on what to do with the wing, and as for the twins I really don't know where to go either.

I think I am happy to splash out on the wing based on what I know already assuming I don't suddenly get a whole lot of people saying I shouldn't. As for the twins I do not want to buy a set of Heisers without trying them due to the weight and size questions. If anyone had a set of tanks it might be possible for me to borrow for the trip to Scapa (going up 29th Sep, back on 8th Oct) it could be really helpful. If there was an also evolve available I would jump at the chance to borrow it but I imagine spare twins are more likely...

This has turned into an absolute pig of a post so congrats on getting to the end and if you can offer thoughts, suggestions or help it will be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Jonathan

limeyx(Offline)

I've talked the local dive store into (theoretically) loaning me an Evolve 40 next week.

Right now I am using the explorer 40 (or 38 or whatever) and I have horrid head-heaviness even with an AL plate. I can mostly fight it off, but it's a pain.

I've seen a few people (some on this board) who have said the Evolve makes you less head heavy in the water, which would be a very good thing for me right now.

It's especially a pain as a lot of the cylinders here are short and so that just adds to the head-down-bias

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floater(Offline)

If you've tried the evolve 40 wing already, then you probably know whether or not it works for you. How did it trim out? How did it vent? Was it the right length for the tanks you used it with and would you be using similar tanks in the future?

I've used both an Explorer 40 and Evolve 40 - albeit in warm water with wetsuits and AL80's (11L's), and prefer the latter. I also tried it with 12L steel tanks with spherical bottoms (not sure of the brand), but it worked just as well with them. The main improvement I noticed was that I now only need to use the rear dump to vent the wing whereas previously (with the explorer) I would always resort to the power inflator/deflator on the final ascent and often needed to break trim much more to get that last bit of gas out (maybe also my inexperience). Also, I like to be able to shift gas in the bottom of the wing as well as the top. Basically I just feel more comfortable in the Evolve 40 than the Explorer 40.

My single wing experience is pretty limited and mostly with the DSS LCD 30, which is a horseshoe, and I have no complaints of it - it trim out and vents great, yet I have noticed and missed some of the donut benefits. For example, for the initial descent I need to be vertical and deflate it using the power inflator/deflator until my head sinks underneath the surface, whereas with the doubles donuts I've used I just face down and pull the rear dump cord.

However, the evolve is significantly longer than the Explorer, maybe by up to 7 inches when empty, so that has been an issue for some people using short tanks. I've heard reports of the Evolve getting squished under short tanks. Also, in a drysuit with a shoulder dump you need to tilt up to vent it anyway, so you might as well use the power inflator/deflator at the same time.

Hybrid(Offline)

Are you happy with the fit of your DS? I had a bit of a head-down/feet up issue, due to my chicken legs - but after I got hold of some gaiters I trimmed out much better - keeping all the air out of my feet/ankles.

A tail weight or v weight can also be used to fix trim issues.

I haven't dives an 40 Evolve, but I know that Explorer 55 and 12L Fabers aren't perfect. I feel that the tanks are too narrow, or the wing is too wide.

neilh (Online)

You'll have a blast - say Hi to Helen and Hazel from me! (My trip report is almost there now, hope to get it done today )

I started out with the Eclipse single wing, then borrowed Rick's Explorer for a while before trying an Evolve. I've got to say that on my Faber 12s I found the Evolve worked better for me in terms of trim and dumping gas - so that's what I dive now! Having said that I got on just fine with the Explorer. It took a little getting used to as a horseshoe, but it's still a nice wing.

I've also dived the Evolve with a single stage and had no problem at all - so for me it's spot on for the kind of diving I'm doing now and the diving I'll be doing for a while.

The Evolve definitely has more clearance on the Heisers/Euros than on the Fabers - you need to be really careful that you don't trap the bottom of the wing under the cylinders. Some advice I got when I was looking into this was to manifold the single Faber 12s I had because if I wanted to borrow twins in the UK they were more likely to be Fabers which I would then be used to diving. I'm sure that with experience you'll be able to handle switching between Fabers, Heisers, etc - but for now think about what makes sense for you.

There are quite a few folk on here with a variety of kit - I'm sure it would be possible to hook up with some and try out some combinations.

It would make sense from a team perspective, perhaps. You would be able to borrow cylinders without worrying too much about weighting differences (assuming they have the same type of 12s!) and gas planning is slightly easier. However it's not that difficult to handle dissimilar cylinders in the team for gas planning and if you would really struggle with the 12s then it doesn't seem sensible to go that route just to have the same as your team. I'm sure other far more qualified people can chip in here

I tried an Explorer 55 with 12s - it's just waaay to big as a wing. That beast wraps the 12s along with any diver above you (There are some photos of me diving it over on YD somewhere!)

40lb seems to be generally accepted as the right size wing for 12s.

Lou(Offline)

It's interesting to hear that you were told that the Evolve helped with "head-heaviness" - can anyone verify that? When I looked at them I was concerned that it would put more bouyancy further down in normal use and would make my head heaviness worse. It is difficult to judge that in detail on the shape alone though, so a side by side comparison from someone who has sorted their issue would be of value.

I would suggest that if you are head heavy 10's or Fabers won't help. I found both of these exacerbated the issue. I dive Euros and the extra length makes them far less prone to tipping you forward. I am about 5'7" so not hugely taller than you are.

Regards

Lou

neilh (Online)

Yep, me
The Evolve sits higher up on the Fabers than the Explorer, so you have more of the cell near the heavy necks/valves on the Fabers.

As I said, I dived both the Explorer and the Evolve and was definitely less head-tippy with the Evolve in a straight side-by-side comparison with no changes except the wing.

I haven't dived Heisers/Euros so can't comment from experience, but with the Evolve and Fabers I still needed a tail weight to get it spot on. From what I understand the extra length and weight distribution of the Heisers/Euros means that I wouldn't have needed the tail weight.

Rich Walker(Offline)

Jonathan,

Either wing will work with either fabers or euro/heisers. Some have found a head-down attitude with fabers and the explorer, which was cured with an evolve. I've also seen it the other way round.

The best thing you can do is to try out an evolve and an explorer with both fabers and euros/heisers. Do it for empty and full cylinders as well, as the difference in weight seems to make a slight difference to some.

I have all of this gear at my disposal, so if you want to have a play, just let me know and we'll arrange a day of equipment test drives.

Rich

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samkin(Offline)

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions so far.

Unfortunatly the dive I did was not representative. It was for just 15 mins in 6m fresh water (wraysbury) with almost empty twin 10's. I found that I didn't really have to think about trim, so it gave me just about the best dive I've had trim wise, and my bouyancy was better than the previous dive during skills.
I will be using 12's the question just comes down to which...

Yeah, I dive single faber 12's atm and most people around me use them for their twins as well.

I'm not aware of being head heavy with my single rig (I think it was limeyx who commented on being so). The length and weight distribution are things that I am thinking about. Phill comment on the other twins thread atm about the differences in weight between the Euro's and the Heisers was intersting.

Thanks Rich, I'd like to take you up on your offer if possible. I'll give you a call.

Thanks all again.
Jonathan

limeyx(Offline)

I've seen a number of posts on this board about it, so either it helps more than one person or the same B'stard is posting under multiple login names

I usually dive double PST LP80/HP100's and they are a short tank so this definitely does not help.

of course all my buddies just say "Dont fix a trim problem with equipment" which is fair enough but I am sick of spending the entire dive fighting my gear.

I will try the Evolve on the shorter tanks, but if that does not work then I guess I am going to have to go with the longer tanks (which are available around here just not as common)

I guess I can also loosen the harness off a bit but that obviously causes more tank movement which isn't necessarily a good thing and I'd like to keep the same harness settings for thick and thin undergarments so I dont want it *too* loose.

I must have a weird body type or something

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