Stages, deco bottles, safeties and drive bottles

*peter_steinhoff* · August 16th, 2006, 05:09 PM

I guess I'm grumpy today

I keep seeing people using the wrong names for things and I get confused. If you need advice on setting up a deco bottle don't say stage bottle, it's NOT the same thing. The name defines the intended use.

Stages or stage bottles are bottles used to extend the actual dive.
Almost exlusively these are aluminum 80s or CE variant.

Deco bottles are used to do the decompression part of the dive.
They contain different mixes and are usually not breathable at depth. For ocean diving aluminum 40s or 7 liters are the most common bottles.

Safeties are stage bottles that you bring along or have already cached in advance as reserve gas. They are only intended for emergencies.

Drive bottles are stages you hook up to a rebreather - to "drive" the RB. They have an extra hose with a "cheater" on. It that is a quick disconnect that you plug in to a switch block that connects to the RB.

jasonmh · August 16th, 2006, 05:12 PM

Thanks for the descriptions Peter. Can you please explain what is different in the setup of a Stage bottle and Deco bottle. Is it the attachments, labeling, etc? I'm trying to learn.
Thanks

iani · August 16th, 2006, 06:14 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff)

Drive bottles are stages you hook up to a rebreather - to "drive" the RB. They have an extra hose with a "cheater" on. It that is a quick disconnect that you plug in to a switch block that connects to the RB.

So what about the drive bottle I use to power my booster pump?

Ian

Digger · August 16th, 2006, 06:29 PM

You see this isn't a universally accepted norm AFAIK in the UK, and I've seen things referred to as all sorts, but essentially the confusion seems to arrive between stages and deco bottles.

I've never heard anyone refer to a tank as a deco bottle. We do a lot of dive using stage rigged, side-slung tanks. Now, to me these are stages. They have richer nitrox mixes in them, and I've never known them referred to as anything else.

What would you call bailout tanks for a rebreather? Say you have two. Is one a stage and one a deco bottle? Are they both just bailout bottles? I don't get it.

In the UK I also very very rarely encounter anyone calling them bottles. I frequently speak to French divers who call them bouteilles, but then that's the accepted word for the things.

And what's going on with doubles and twins? It is a twinset? So why a set of doubles? An Americanism it seems.

Oh dear, that looks like a bit of a counter-rant. But I am quite keen on people using terminology that can be understood, but I don't feel the need to standardise things just for the sake of it. If divers call them tanks or cylinders can they still be in the club?

Digs.

***Bob Cooper*** · August 16th, 2006, 06:57 PM

A twinset is something a middle-aged woman wears (usually with pearls).

A set of doubles is exactly what it is, a set of doubles (cylinders).

Deco bottles are exactly that, bottles (cylinders) that carry deco gas.

A stage bottle (or cylinder), usually carries additional bottom gas.

We tend to interchange and confuse the terms.

Bob

PS. A tank is something they use in the Army

Lou · August 16th, 2006, 07:21 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bob Cooper)

A twinset is something a middle-aged woman wears (usually with pearls).

A set of doubles is exactly what it is, a set of doubles (cylinders).

Deco bottles are exactly that, bottles (cylinders) that carry deco gas.

A stage bottle (or cylinder), usually carries additional bottom gas.

We tend to interchange and confuse the terms.

Bob

PS. A tank is something they use in the Army

A cylinder is something you have in your car engine, a tank is something to store fluid in...

I don't think you can have a "set of doubles", if we are playing pedantics here. Our US cousins may have termed a double tank set-up that, but double would make it a plural on top of a term that already describes two-off, and so that does not make sense unless you use the pluralisation to describe many twinsets. It should be "a double".

I thought that the term "stage" came from tanks used at different stages of the dive. That could, in theory, be either the bottom stage or the decompression stage.

Lou

Joe Hesketh · August 16th, 2006, 07:25 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Digger)

And what's going on with doubles and twins? It is a twinset? So why a set of doubles? An Americanism it seems.

Ooh, my favourite hobby horse

“Twinset” is often, but in my opinion erroneously, used to describe the configuration of the cylinders themselves. If you look at usage of the term through time, the “set” in formerly popular terms such as “breathing set” or “aqua-lung set” refers to the combination of cylinder and regulator (and later buoyancy device). The “twinset” (think early Cousteau) is no different - it refers to the complete breathing apparatus, i.e. a set but with two (or twin) cylinders. The “set” through this etymological line is not a reference to a set of two cylinders. Therefore, “twin cylinders” or “twins” would be technically correct, but not if “twins” were used as a shorting of “twinset” (which it generally is).

Conversely, “doubles” is a shortened version of “double tanks” (substituted cylinders or bottles as you prefer) and thus specifically refers to just the cylinders themselves (as banded and manifolded, as the case may be). “Set of doubles” is also common, but there, the “set” is this time referring to the set of cylinders, and not the breathing set. “Doubles rig” would correctly be a reference to the complete breathing set, “rig” being commonly used in the US in the way “set” is used in the UK.

Bizarrely, mixing the two terminologies gives you the now quite popular UK phrase “twinset rig” which is tautology - you might as well say “twin set set”.

That’s why I prefer the term “doubles”, because I am generally referring to just the cylinder configuration when I use it.

Also, so what if it’s a US term? I make no apologies or attempt to hide the fact that the majority of my current diving equipment owes its genesis in design to the US. Flannigan backplate, Benjamin manifold (OK, so he lived in the Bahamas and was Canadian…), Martz canister light, to name but a few. I’d credit the configuration and component design of my “doubles” with that same genesis, so why not use their term especially if it has the added advantage of not being logically and historically open to confusion and mis-use.

Plus, as Bob so rightly just pointed out, “twinset” sounds naff…

Joe

Lou · August 16th, 2006, 07:28 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe Hesketh)

Ooh, my favourite hobby horse

“Twinset” is often, but in my opinion erroneously, used to describe the configuration of the cylinders themselves. If you look at usage of the term through time, the “set” in formerly popular terms such as “breathing set” or “aqua-lung set” refers to the combination of cylinder and regulator (and later buoyancy device). The “twinset” (think early Cousteau) is no different - it refers to the complete breathing apparatus, i.e. a set but with two (or twin) cylinders. The “set” through this etymological line is not a reference to a set of two cylinders. Therefore, “twin cylinders” or “twins” would be technically correct, but not if “twins” were used as a shorting of “twinset” (which it generally is).

Conversely, “doubles” is a shortened version of “double tanks” (substituted cylinders or bottles as you prefer) and thus specifically refers to just the cylinders themselves (as banded and manifolded, as the case may be). “Set of doubles” is also common, but there, the “set” is this time referring to the set of cylinders, and not the breathing set. “Doubles rig” would correctly be a reference to the complete breathing set, “rig” being commonly used in the US in the way “set” is used in the UK.

Bizarrely, mixing the two terminologies gives you the now quite popular UK phrase “twinset rig” which is tautology - you might as well say “twin set set”.

That’s why I prefer the term “doubles”, because I am generally referring to just the cylinder configuration when I use it.

Also, so what if it’s a US term? I make no apologies or attempt to hide the fact that the majority of my current diving equipment owes its genesis in design to the US. Flannigan backplate, Benjamin manifold (OK, so he lived in the Bahamas and was Canadian…), Martz canister light, to name but a few. I’d credit the configuration and component design of my “doubles” with that same genesis, so why not use their term especially if it has the added advantage of not being logically and historically open to confusion and mis-use.

Plus, as Bob so rightly just pointed out, “twinset” sounds naff…

Joe

So, just "twins" then :D

Howard Payne · August 16th, 2006, 07:39 PM

Twins!!!!!!! Oh sorry wrong website!

Does it really matter? The whole point of GUE stages/deco bottles is that because of the way they're marked and handled in the water it is virtually impossible to mix them up and breath them at the wrong time / depth. Call em what you like. You never hear people talking about anything but "stage regs" tho' do you?

Joe Hesketh · August 16th, 2006, 07:41 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lou)

So, just "twins" then :D

No, cause I can't be sure you're not abbreviating "twinset". You could specify "twin tanks" but then you're left with using an even less common term.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lou)

I don't think you can have a "set of doubles", if we are playing pedantics here. Our US cousins may have termed a double tank set-up that, but double would make it a plural on top of a term that already describes two-off, and so that does not make sense unless you use the pluralisation to describe many twinsets. It should be "a double".

“Double tanks” is the singular for a set of two tanks. “Doubles” is an abbreviation for that singular term despite it being plural. Saying a “set of doubles” is the same as saying a “set of double tanks”, which is still only two tanks however you look at it.

Now why on earth was Peter suggesting that any of this could be confusing

August 16th, 2006, 05:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
peter_steinhoff(Offline) Instructor candidate Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sweden & Florida Posts: 205	I guess I'm grumpy today I keep seeing people using the wrong names for things and I get confused. If you need advice on setting up a deco bottle don't say stage bottle, it's NOT the same thing. The name defines the intended use. Stages or stage bottles are bottles used to extend the actual dive. Almost exlusively these are aluminum 80s or CE variant. Deco bottles are used to do the decompression part of the dive. They contain different mixes and are usually not breathable at depth. For ocean diving aluminum 40s or 7 liters are the most common bottles. Safeties are stage bottles that you bring along or have already cached in advance as reserve gas. They are only intended for emergencies. Drive bottles are stages you hook up to a rebreather - to "drive" the RB. They have an extra hose with a "cheater" on. It that is a quick disconnect that you plug in to a switch block that connects to the RB. __________________ Peter Steinhoff GUE DIR-F, Tech1, Tech2, Cave1, Cave2, Cave3, RB80-1&2, DIR-F/Cave Instructor Candidate. NAUI Tec Instructor (Trimix, Technical DPV, Technical Wreck Penenetration etc) WKPP Support Diver, Halcyon Product Development Team, Gavinscooter Representative. Various IANTD, NSS-CDS, NACD, PADI & NAUI. ---------------------------------------------- http://dir-diver.com http://peter.steinhoff.se (swedish only)

August 16th, 2006, 07:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
Howard Payne(Offline) The Voices And The Becks Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 2,024	Twins!!!!!!! Oh sorry wrong website! Does it really matter? The whole point of GUE stages/deco bottles is that because of the way they're marked and handled in the water it is virtually impossible to mix them up and breath them at the wrong time / depth. Call em what you like. You never hear people talking about anything but "stage regs" tho' do you? __________________ Eastbourne Sub-Aqua Club 0513 Nitrox & Trimix, Club Boat, Plenty of Good Value Diving, Regular Club Trips & Holidays, Rec & Tech Training, GUE / Hogarthian Friendly Come Try Us!

August 16th, 2006, 05:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
jasonmh(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 125	Thanks for the descriptions Peter. Can you please explain what is different in the setup of a Stage bottle and Deco bottle. Is it the attachments, labeling, etc? I'm trying to learn. Thanks

August 16th, 2006, 06:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
iani(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Middlesex Posts: 76	Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff) Drive bottles are stages you hook up to a rebreather - to "drive" the RB. They have an extra hose with a "cheater" on. It that is a quick disconnect that you plug in to a switch block that connects to the RB. So what about the drive bottle I use to power my booster pump? Ian

August 16th, 2006, 06:29 PM	#4 (permalink)
Digger(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Midlands Posts: 167	You see this isn't a universally accepted norm AFAIK in the UK, and I've seen things referred to as all sorts, but essentially the confusion seems to arrive between stages and deco bottles. I've never heard anyone refer to a tank as a deco bottle. We do a lot of dive using stage rigged, side-slung tanks. Now, to me these are stages. They have richer nitrox mixes in them, and I've never known them referred to as anything else. What would you call bailout tanks for a rebreather? Say you have two. Is one a stage and one a deco bottle? Are they both just bailout bottles? I don't get it. In the UK I also very very rarely encounter anyone calling them bottles. I frequently speak to French divers who call them bouteilles, but then that's the accepted word for the things. And what's going on with doubles and twins? It is a twinset? So why a set of doubles? An Americanism it seems. Oh dear, that looks like a bit of a counter-rant. But I am quite keen on people using terminology that can be understood, but I don't feel the need to standardise things just for the sake of it. If divers call them tanks or cylinders can they still be in the club? Digs.

August 16th, 2006, 06:57 PM	#5 (permalink)
*Bob Cooper*(Offline) Moderator - "Don't stop me now!" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: South East London, UK Posts: 828	A twinset is something a middle-aged woman wears (usually with pearls). A set of doubles is exactly what it is, a set of doubles (cylinders). Deco bottles are exactly that, bottles (cylinders) that carry deco gas. A stage bottle (or cylinder), usually carries additional bottom gas. We tend to interchange and confuse the terms. Bob PS. A tank is something they use in the Army

August 16th, 2006, 07:21 PM	#6 (permalink)
Lou(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bucks Posts: 199	Quote: (Originally Posted by Bob Cooper) A twinset is something a middle-aged woman wears (usually with pearls). A set of doubles is exactly what it is, a set of doubles (cylinders). Deco bottles are exactly that, bottles (cylinders) that carry deco gas. A stage bottle (or cylinder), usually carries additional bottom gas. We tend to interchange and confuse the terms. Bob PS. A tank is something they use in the Army A cylinder is something you have in your car engine, a tank is something to store fluid in... I don't think you can have a "set of doubles", if we are playing pedantics here. Our US cousins may have termed a double tank set-up that, but double would make it a plural on top of a term that already describes two-off, and so that does not make sense unless you use the pluralisation to describe many twinsets. It should be "a double". I thought that the term "stage" came from tanks used at different stages of the dive. That could, in theory, be either the bottom stage or the decompression stage. Lou

August 16th, 2006, 07:25 PM	#7 (permalink)
Joe Hesketh(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 705	Quote: (Originally Posted by Digger) And what's going on with doubles and twins? It is a twinset? So why a set of doubles? An Americanism it seems. Ooh, my favourite hobby horse “Twinset” is often, but in my opinion erroneously, used to describe the configuration of the cylinders themselves. If you look at usage of the term through time, the “set” in formerly popular terms such as “breathing set” or “aqua-lung set” refers to the combination of cylinder and regulator (and later buoyancy device). The “twinset” (think early Cousteau) is no different - it refers to the complete breathing apparatus, i.e. a set but with two (or twin) cylinders. The “set” through this etymological line is not a reference to a set of two cylinders. Therefore, “twin cylinders” or “twins” would be technically correct, but not if “twins” were used as a shorting of “twinset” (which it generally is). Conversely, “doubles” is a shortened version of “double tanks” (substituted cylinders or bottles as you prefer) and thus specifically refers to just the cylinders themselves (as banded and manifolded, as the case may be). “Set of doubles” is also common, but there, the “set” is this time referring to the set of cylinders, and not the breathing set. “Doubles rig” would correctly be a reference to the complete breathing set, “rig” being commonly used in the US in the way “set” is used in the UK. Bizarrely, mixing the two terminologies gives you the now quite popular UK phrase “twinset rig” which is tautology - you might as well say “twin set set”. That’s why I prefer the term “doubles”, because I am generally referring to just the cylinder configuration when I use it. Also, so what if it’s a US term? I make no apologies or attempt to hide the fact that the majority of my current diving equipment owes its genesis in design to the US. Flannigan backplate, Benjamin manifold (OK, so he lived in the Bahamas and was Canadian…), Martz canister light, to name but a few. I’d credit the configuration and component design of my “doubles” with that same genesis, so why not use their term especially if it has the added advantage of not being logically and historically open to confusion and mis-use. Plus, as Bob so rightly just pointed out, “twinset” sounds naff… Joe

August 16th, 2006, 07:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
Lou(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bucks Posts: 199	Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe Hesketh) Ooh, my favourite hobby horse “Twinset” is often, but in my opinion erroneously, used to describe the configuration of the cylinders themselves. If you look at usage of the term through time, the “set” in formerly popular terms such as “breathing set” or “aqua-lung set” refers to the combination of cylinder and regulator (and later buoyancy device). The “twinset” (think early Cousteau) is no different - it refers to the complete breathing apparatus, i.e. a set but with two (or twin) cylinders. The “set” through this etymological line is not a reference to a set of two cylinders. Therefore, “twin cylinders” or “twins” would be technically correct, but not if “twins” were used as a shorting of “twinset” (which it generally is). Conversely, “doubles” is a shortened version of “double tanks” (substituted cylinders or bottles as you prefer) and thus specifically refers to just the cylinders themselves (as banded and manifolded, as the case may be). “Set of doubles” is also common, but there, the “set” is this time referring to the set of cylinders, and not the breathing set. “Doubles rig” would correctly be a reference to the complete breathing set, “rig” being commonly used in the US in the way “set” is used in the UK. Bizarrely, mixing the two terminologies gives you the now quite popular UK phrase “twinset rig” which is tautology - you might as well say “twin set set”. That’s why I prefer the term “doubles”, because I am generally referring to just the cylinder configuration when I use it. Also, so what if it’s a US term? I make no apologies or attempt to hide the fact that the majority of my current diving equipment owes its genesis in design to the US. Flannigan backplate, Benjamin manifold (OK, so he lived in the Bahamas and was Canadian…), Martz canister light, to name but a few. I’d credit the configuration and component design of my “doubles” with that same genesis, so why not use their term especially if it has the added advantage of not being logically and historically open to confusion and mis-use. Plus, as Bob so rightly just pointed out, “twinset” sounds naff… Joe So, just "twins" then :D

August 16th, 2006, 07:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
Joe Hesketh(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 705	Quote: (Originally Posted by Lou) So, just "twins" then :D No, cause I can't be sure you're not abbreviating "twinset". You could specify "twin tanks" but then you're left with using an even less common term. Quote: (Originally Posted by Lou) I don't think you can have a "set of doubles", if we are playing pedantics here. Our US cousins may have termed a double tank set-up that, but double would make it a plural on top of a term that already describes two-off, and so that does not make sense unless you use the pluralisation to describe many twinsets. It should be "a double". “Double tanks” is the singular for a set of two tanks. “Doubles” is an abbreviation for that singular term despite it being plural. Saying a “set of doubles” is the same as saying a “set of double tanks”, which is still only two tanks however you look at it. Now why on earth was Peter suggesting that any of this could be confusing