cuff valve

Leszek · July 20th, 2006, 11:14 AM

Hi,

I'm thinking about installing cuff valve into my dry suit.
I heard that it's very useful, but are there any disadventages of this solution?

What's your opinion?

Best Regards
Leszek

*JohnKendall* · July 20th, 2006, 11:47 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Leszek)

Hi,

I'm thinking about installing cuff valve into my dry suit.
I heard that it's very useful, but are there any disadventages of this solution?

What's your opinion?

Best Regards
Leszek

Um, Why?

Picture the scenario:

You are in a cave, it's a silty floor. Suddenly you hear a mass of bubbles behind your head to the left, so you reach back to close your Left valve, and as you do, you lift your left wrist, the wrist dump lets all the air out of your drysuit and you sink into the silt, reducing the visability to zero, and you lose sight of your team and the line.

HTH
J

Leszek · July 20th, 2006, 12:11 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall)

Um, Why?

Picture the scenario:

You are in a cave, it's a silty floor. Suddenly you hear a mass of bubbles behind your head to the left, so you reach back to close your Left valve, and as you do, you lift your left wrist, the wrist dump lets all the air out of your drysuit and you sink into the silt, reducing the visability to zero, and you lose sight of your team and the line.

HTH
J

I don't think that it might be a problem. When you close left valve and you are in horizontal position the wrist dump is on the same level as standard dry suit dump. The difference is that you can always close standard dump, but I swim with full open and has never had any problem with it.

LL

GLOC · July 20th, 2006, 12:20 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Leszek)

I don't think that it might be a problem. When you close left valve and you are in horizontal position the wrist dump is on the same level as standard dry suit dump. The difference is that you can always close standard dump, but I swim with full open and has never had any problem with it.

LL

Actually it is a problem, as I have experienced first hand.

Doing my Adv Nitrox and Deco course in NDAC, shut down the left post, all the air migrated out of the left arm which reduced the bouyancy (as there is always 'some air' in the suit), I then sank, but because the left post was shut I could not put any more air in the suit and had to resort to putting air in the wing. This caused problems after I finished the drill as I know had to dump air from the wing and then put some air into the suit.

Shortly afterwards I bought a Protec explorer with shoulder dump ( dive fully open), and I never had the same issue again.

Although you say the cuff dump is at the same level when you conduct the drill, the correct way to get the arm back is to lift it above the shoulder, bring it in parallel to the body and then reach back, during this period the air escapes.

HTH will give you a reason why you shouldn't have a cuff dump when diving twinset rig where you need to be able to do shutdowns.

*JohnKendall* · July 20th, 2006, 12:23 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Leszek)

but I swim with full open and has never had any problem with it.

LL

So what problem are you trying to solve by going to a cuff dump? As you say, you cannot close a cuff dump, so if you need to be able to keep some gas in the suit you can't (if you need to raise your left arm for any reason)

HTH
J

Leszek · July 20th, 2006, 12:37 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall)

So what problem are you trying to solve by going to a cuff dump? As you say, you cannot close a cuff dump, so if you need to be able to keep some gas in the suit you can't (if you need to raise your left arm for any reason)

HTH
J

I use BARE dry suit. In my opinion in this dry suit dump valve is in a wrong place, that's why I want to put cuff dump. On movies made by AG it looks that they are pretty comfortable.

on 5thD-X forum there is a discussion about cuff dumps, but I also wanted to check your opinions
http://forum.5thd-x.com/viewtopic.ph...r=asc&start=15

Regards
LL

*JohnKendall* · July 20th, 2006, 12:39 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Leszek)

I use BARE dry suit. In my opinion in this dry suit dump valve is in a wrong place, that's why I want to put cuff dump. On movies made by AG it looks that they are pretty comfortable.

on 5thD-X forum there is a discussion about cuff dumps, but I also wanted to check your opinions
http://forum.5thd-x.com/viewtopic.ph...r=asc&start=15

Regards
LL

Where is the dump valve on this suit?

Would it not be better to have the shoulder dump moved to the correct place rather than going for a completely non-standard, sub-optimal solution?

Fix the real problem rather than chasing your tail

HTH
J

Leszek · July 20th, 2006, 12:46 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall)

Where is the dump valve on this suit?

Would it not be better to have the shoulder dump moved to the correct place rather than going for a completely non-standard, sub-optimal solution?

Fix the real problem rather than chasing your tail

HTH
J

It's on biceps, I think that it should be more outside (on a shoulder).
Maybe you are right and it's better to change standard one.
After watching movies which I mentioned above I thought that cuff dump is a really good solution.

LL

**Howard Payne** · July 20th, 2006, 12:47 PM

One of the guys on my fundies course had a cuff dumping suit which he thought was fine. When we watched the video debrief after Valve drills - every time he went to shut down his left post, his left wrist became the highest point on his body reaching for the valve and the air literally poured out of the cuff dump causing him to become extremely negative and loose control of his buoyancy. You would believe how much of a problem it is until you see the video of what happened. I wouldn't just say it's less than ideal - it's an absolute no no if you're going to be doing any kind of diving that involves shutdowns which you clearly are. Get an auto shoulder dumping suit or get your existing suit modified accordingly.

HTH

Davey Willo · July 20th, 2006, 01:04 PM

I'm an autodump not cuff dump user but I'm suprised to hear the comments about the problems with shutdowns while using the cuff dump... these are all AG uses and I've never seen him have issues when he demonstrates a valve drill to anyone.

Maybe the divers having these buoyancy issues when performing the shutdowns are actually suffering from having too much gas in their suits.

July 20th, 2006, 11:14 AM	#1 (permalink)
Leszek(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Gdansk, Poland Posts: 41	cuff valve Hi, I'm thinking about installing cuff valve into my dry suit. I heard that it's very useful, but are there any disadventages of this solution? What's your opinion? Best Regards Leszek

July 20th, 2006, 11:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,102	Quote: (Originally Posted by Leszek) Hi, I'm thinking about installing cuff valve into my dry suit. I heard that it's very useful, but are there any disadventages of this solution? What's your opinion? Best Regards Leszek Um, Why? Picture the scenario: You are in a cave, it's a silty floor. Suddenly you hear a mass of bubbles behind your head to the left, so you reach back to close your Left valve, and as you do, you lift your left wrist, the wrist dump lets all the air out of your drysuit and you sink into the silt, reducing the visability to zero, and you lose sight of your team and the line. HTH J __________________ John Kendall http://www.guetraining.com/ GUE Instruction, Santi and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Santi Shop

July 20th, 2006, 12:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
GLOC (Online) Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Fleet, Hants Posts: 2,000	Quote: (Originally Posted by Leszek) I don't think that it might be a problem. When you close left valve and you are in horizontal position the wrist dump is on the same level as standard dry suit dump. The difference is that you can always close standard dump, but I swim with full open and has never had any problem with it. LL Actually it is a problem, as I have experienced first hand. Doing my Adv Nitrox and Deco course in NDAC, shut down the left post, all the air migrated out of the left arm which reduced the bouyancy (as there is always 'some air' in the suit), I then sank, but because the left post was shut I could not put any more air in the suit and had to resort to putting air in the wing. This caused problems after I finished the drill as I know had to dump air from the wing and then put some air into the suit. Shortly afterwards I bought a Protec explorer with shoulder dump ( dive fully open), and I never had the same issue again. Although you say the cuff dump is at the same level when you conduct the drill, the correct way to get the arm back is to lift it above the shoulder, bring it in parallel to the body and then reach back, during this period the air escapes. HTH will give you a reason why you shouldn't have a cuff dump when diving twinset rig where you need to be able to do shutdowns. __________________ Gareth Images of Life Photography DIR Team Foxturd Travels Underwater and Further Afar If you don't have the time to do something right, where are you going to find the time to fix it? - Stephen King

July 20th, 2006, 12:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,102	Quote: (Originally Posted by Leszek) but I swim with full open and has never had any problem with it. LL So what problem are you trying to solve by going to a cuff dump? As you say, you cannot close a cuff dump, so if you need to be able to keep some gas in the suit you can't (if you need to raise your left arm for any reason) HTH J __________________ John Kendall http://www.guetraining.com/ GUE Instruction, Santi and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Santi Shop

July 20th, 2006, 12:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,102	Quote: (Originally Posted by Leszek) I use BARE dry suit. In my opinion in this dry suit dump valve is in a wrong place, that's why I want to put cuff dump. On movies made by AG it looks that they are pretty comfortable. on 5thD-X forum there is a discussion about cuff dumps, but I also wanted to check your opinions http://forum.5thd-x.com/viewtopic.ph...r=asc&start=15 Regards LL Where is the dump valve on this suit? Would it not be better to have the shoulder dump moved to the correct place rather than going for a completely non-standard, sub-optimal solution? Fix the real problem rather than chasing your tail HTH J __________________ John Kendall http://www.guetraining.com/ GUE Instruction, Santi and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Santi Shop

July 20th, 2006, 12:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
Leszek(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Gdansk, Poland Posts: 41	Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall) Um, Why? Picture the scenario: You are in a cave, it's a silty floor. Suddenly you hear a mass of bubbles behind your head to the left, so you reach back to close your Left valve, and as you do, you lift your left wrist, the wrist dump lets all the air out of your drysuit and you sink into the silt, reducing the visability to zero, and you lose sight of your team and the line. HTH J I don't think that it might be a problem. When you close left valve and you are in horizontal position the wrist dump is on the same level as standard dry suit dump. The difference is that you can always close standard dump, but I swim with full open and has never had any problem with it. LL

July 20th, 2006, 12:37 PM	#6 (permalink)
Leszek(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Gdansk, Poland Posts: 41	Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall) So what problem are you trying to solve by going to a cuff dump? As you say, you cannot close a cuff dump, so if you need to be able to keep some gas in the suit you can't (if you need to raise your left arm for any reason) HTH J I use BARE dry suit. In my opinion in this dry suit dump valve is in a wrong place, that's why I want to put cuff dump. On movies made by AG it looks that they are pretty comfortable. on 5thD-X forum there is a discussion about cuff dumps, but I also wanted to check your opinions http://forum.5thd-x.com/viewtopic.ph...r=asc&start=15 Regards LL

July 20th, 2006, 12:46 PM	#8 (permalink)
Leszek(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Gdansk, Poland Posts: 41	Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall) Where is the dump valve on this suit? Would it not be better to have the shoulder dump moved to the correct place rather than going for a completely non-standard, sub-optimal solution? Fix the real problem rather than chasing your tail HTH J It's on biceps, I think that it should be more outside (on a shoulder). Maybe you are right and it's better to change standard one. After watching movies which I mentioned above I thought that cuff dump is a really good solution. LL

July 20th, 2006, 12:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
Howard Payne (Online) Strokey Dokily Doo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,210	One of the guys on my fundies course had a cuff dumping suit which he thought was fine. When we watched the video debrief after Valve drills - every time he went to shut down his left post, his left wrist became the highest point on his body reaching for the valve and the air literally poured out of the cuff dump causing him to become extremely negative and loose control of his buoyancy. You would believe how much of a problem it is until you see the video of what happened. I wouldn't just say it's less than ideal - it's an absolute no no if you're going to be doing any kind of diving that involves shutdowns which you clearly are. Get an auto shoulder dumping suit or get your existing suit modified accordingly. HTH __________________ The Foxturd Chimp

July 20th, 2006, 01:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
Davey Willo(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cleveland Posts: 197	I'm an autodump not cuff dump user but I'm suprised to hear the comments about the problems with shutdowns while using the cuff dump... these are all AG uses and I've never seen him have issues when he demonstrates a valve drill to anyone. Maybe the divers having these buoyancy issues when performing the shutdowns are actually suffering from having too much gas in their suits.