Eclipse or Pioneer?

marine521 · June 29th, 2006, 11:47 AM

Ok it is time to pick my new BCD. I was thinking of either the Eclipse system or the Pioneer system (both from Halcyon). Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of both of them and whom am I to contact since there aren’t dealers here in Greece?

Vie · June 29th, 2006, 05:19 PM

Personally I would go for the two-layered Eclipse - the price difference between the Eclipse and Pioneer is not much. Older Pioneers do not require a STA so that was a consideration but the new Pioneer 30 no longer has the "built in" STA...

Quote: (Originally Posted by marine521)

whom am I to contact since there aren’t dealers here in Greece?

Maybe these guys?

http://www.dir-greece.com/

or

http://www.dir.cy.net/index.html

Easiest option would probably be to buy online.

floater · June 29th, 2006, 05:41 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by marine521)

Ok it is time to pick my new BCD. I was thinking of either the Eclipse system or the Pioneer system (both from Halcyon). Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of both of them and whom am I to contact since there aren’t dealers here in Greece?

The eclipse is double layered, the outer layer protects the inner bag which in turn controls buoyancy. If the inner bag is punctured, then it's often easier to repair and cheaper to replace - the outer layer has a zipper that allows you access the inner layer. You can repair the single layer design too with aquaseal, but I'm told that once they start to break they keep on deteriorating, which happens during intense use.

The drawback to the double layer design is that it's more expensive, bulkier and creates more drag. For example, if you suck the wing completely empty, then the inner bag will squeeze into a thin sheet, whereas the outer bag, if it's there, will still be hanging out and creating drag.

For intense use, people seem to prefer the double layered design, but for occasional holiday diving I'd personally choose the single layer design, such as the pioneer, all else equal.

By the way, I heard they've redesigned the pioneer, and I've heard some mixed reviews about the new version, but don't remember right now what the verdict has been.

true · June 29th, 2006, 05:45 PM

As someone who has scoured over hundreds of photos of both systems in use, I'd argue that the Eclipse30 is just as clean and streamlined in-water as the Pioneer...

floater · June 30th, 2006, 12:53 AM

I've attached pics (first two) of my girlfriend's single bladder Oxycheq Razor 30 wing, similar to the pioneer I believe, and of my DSS LCD 30 wing (last 2 pics), which is a double bladder wing and in that sense similar to the Eclipse. Both wings are considered to be quality products, and these pics are just meant to contrast a single bladder wing with a double bladder wing, nothing else.

In the pics they are completely empty. It's hard for me to see how the latter, or double bladder wings in general, could not create more drag and be less streamlined than the former, or single bladder wings in general, when close to empty. Obviously the fuller the wings are the closer they will be in drag created (all else equal). The inside of the LCD probably looks like the oxycheq when empty, but the outer layer hangs out there loose.

Also, a DM I know did about 600 dives on the pioneer before switching to an Oxycheq Sig Series wing (similar to the Eclipse). By now I'm sure he has 100's of dives on the oxycheq wing as well. He said he noticed an increase in drag, but prefers the latter wing because the other one started leaking, and even though he repaired the leaks with aquaseal the wing developed new ones after 10-20 more dives. He donated the pioneer to a DM-to-be friend of his who is still diving it.

So there's no free lunch - at least that's my belief, though for the record I have no experience diving the pioneer or the eclipse specifically, so take this for what it's worth.

marine521 · June 30th, 2006, 10:55 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Vie)

Maybe these guys?

http://www.dir-greece.com/

I have seen this URL but it isnt working properly for many days (not say months) I tried to sent an email but guess again...there is also problem...

I think I ll turn to cyprus....

I am a little skeptic about buying on line...

true · June 30th, 2006, 11:23 AM

Floater,

I'd suggest that how they look when holding the wing in your living room isn't a great comparison for how they perform in the water. You seldom dive with much gas in the wing at all. Some, but not that much. The Eclipse holds its shape better when partially inflated -- in my experience, it does a better job of remaining close to the body during a dive.

That said, both wings will perform well and both have their own advantages. At some point, it is like choosing high-end bike components-- you can shave a few grams here and there, but at the end of the day all the parts at the top level will do the job and one would have been better off dropping a few pounds at the gym than obsessing over the absolutely lightest bits.

GoDiva · June 30th, 2006, 12:02 PM

I have a pioneer. Has about 80 dives on it now, over a period of a year. I am very happy with it. It is the old sort, with "built in STA". I bought a STA, but never used it (silly thing to have got in first place, I admit). Have used it with a weighted STA, which I borrowed with an ALU 80 for diving with the wing (to compensate for the lighter tank).
It is good for traveling: folds up pretty small, and no need to drag an extra bit of steel with you in your all ready overweight luggage. Only servicing it has needed (apart from rincing regularly after diving), is twice to the SS inflator (soaked it in silicone last time, so hope it will hold out a bit longer).
I could not be bothered to pay the extra money for the eclipse at the point I bought it, and liked the fact that I did not need the STA.

rjack · June 30th, 2006, 06:01 PM

If you are worried about online ordering issues, Tobin at Deep Sea Supply makes very nice wings and is a recommended on-line dealer.

http://www.deepseasupply.com/index.html

Not sure about international shipping issues, but at least wings aren't very heavy.

June 29th, 2006, 11:47 AM	#1 (permalink)
marine521(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Athens Posts: 61	Eclipse or Pioneer? Ok it is time to pick my new BCD. I was thinking of either the Eclipse system or the Pioneer system (both from Halcyon). Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of both of them and whom am I to contact since there aren’t dealers here in Greece? __________________ Hellenic Underwater Times: Everything is Different Down Under

June 29th, 2006, 05:19 PM	#2 (permalink)
Vie(Offline) Loner at the ball... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Krung Thep, Siam, mostly Posts: 191	Personally I would go for the two-layered Eclipse - the price difference between the Eclipse and Pioneer is not much. Older Pioneers do not require a STA so that was a consideration but the new Pioneer 30 no longer has the "built in" STA... Quote: (Originally Posted by marine521) whom am I to contact since there aren’t dealers here in Greece? Maybe these guys? http://www.dir-greece.com/ or http://www.dir.cy.net/index.html Easiest option would probably be to buy online. Last edited by Vie; June 29th, 2006 at 05:41 PM.

June 29th, 2006, 05:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
floater(Offline) Mostly harmless Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Currently in the US, but I'm not American Posts: 155	Quote: (Originally Posted by marine521) Ok it is time to pick my new BCD. I was thinking of either the Eclipse system or the Pioneer system (both from Halcyon). Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of both of them and whom am I to contact since there aren’t dealers here in Greece? The eclipse is double layered, the outer layer protects the inner bag which in turn controls buoyancy. If the inner bag is punctured, then it's often easier to repair and cheaper to replace - the outer layer has a zipper that allows you access the inner layer. You can repair the single layer design too with aquaseal, but I'm told that once they start to break they keep on deteriorating, which happens during intense use. The drawback to the double layer design is that it's more expensive, bulkier and creates more drag. For example, if you suck the wing completely empty, then the inner bag will squeeze into a thin sheet, whereas the outer bag, if it's there, will still be hanging out and creating drag. For intense use, people seem to prefer the double layered design, but for occasional holiday diving I'd personally choose the single layer design, such as the pioneer, all else equal. By the way, I heard they've redesigned the pioneer, and I've heard some mixed reviews about the new version, but don't remember right now what the verdict has been. Last edited by floater; June 29th, 2006 at 05:44 PM.

June 30th, 2006, 10:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
marine521(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Athens Posts: 61	Quote: (Originally Posted by Vie) Maybe these guys? http://www.dir-greece.com/ I have seen this URL but it isnt working properly for many days (not say months) I tried to sent an email but guess again...there is also problem... I think I ll turn to cyprus.... I am a little skeptic about buying on line... __________________ Hellenic Underwater Times: Everything is Different Down Under

June 30th, 2006, 12:02 PM	#8 (permalink)
GoDiva (Online) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 563	I have a pioneer. Has about 80 dives on it now, over a period of a year. I am very happy with it. It is the old sort, with "built in STA". I bought a STA, but never used it (silly thing to have got in first place, I admit). Have used it with a weighted STA, which I borrowed with an ALU 80 for diving with the wing (to compensate for the lighter tank). It is good for traveling: folds up pretty small, and no need to drag an extra bit of steel with you in your all ready overweight luggage. Only servicing it has needed (apart from rincing regularly after diving), is twice to the SS inflator (soaked it in silicone last time, so hope it will hold out a bit longer). I could not be bothered to pay the extra money for the eclipse at the point I bought it, and liked the fact that I did not need the STA. __________________ "Miss Dodgy-Pockets" or "Miss Lime-Green, Clear-Skirt Mask"

June 29th, 2006, 05:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
true(Offline) GUE Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 141	As someone who has scoured over hundreds of photos of both systems in use, I'd argue that the Eclipse30 is just as clean and streamlined in-water as the Pioneer...

June 30th, 2006, 11:23 AM	#7 (permalink)
true(Offline) GUE Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 141	Floater, I'd suggest that how they look when holding the wing in your living room isn't a great comparison for how they perform in the water. You seldom dive with much gas in the wing at all. Some, but not that much. The Eclipse holds its shape better when partially inflated -- in my experience, it does a better job of remaining close to the body during a dive. That said, both wings will perform well and both have their own advantages. At some point, it is like choosing high-end bike components-- you can shave a few grams here and there, but at the end of the day all the parts at the top level will do the job and one would have been better off dropping a few pounds at the gym than obsessing over the absolutely lightest bits.

June 30th, 2006, 06:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
rjack (Online) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 865	If you are worried about online ordering issues, Tobin at Deep Sea Supply makes very nice wings and is a recommended on-line dealer. http://www.deepseasupply.com/index.html Not sure about international shipping issues, but at least wings aren't very heavy.