Halcyon 4.5' CC Surface Marker

nic_the_greek · June 19th, 2006, 02:37 PM

I recently purchased one of these on eBay and have been having some problems when deploying it. I have tried orally inflating and using the drysuit feed from depths around 30m. On all occaisions, upon surfacing, there seems to be less air and a substantial amount of water in the blob than was present when I deployed it. There doesn't appear to be a leak so I am guessing that it is something to do with the over-pressure valve.

Does anybody have any experience of this or have any advice?

Cheers/Nic

caverkevin · June 19th, 2006, 02:55 PM

I have never looked at the model you are talking about. I would like to know something. Is the OPRV at the top or the bottom of the bag?

**jb2cool** · June 19th, 2006, 03:05 PM

OVP Valve is about 15% of the way up i believe.

I use the 3' 3" version of this and get on with it ok. I orally inflate mine. There is a little water inside but nothing much. A good puff and it's on it's way. Stick a really good puff into it and it fires up like a ballistic missile.

caverkevin · June 19th, 2006, 03:14 PM

Just wondering becasue my 80 pound Halcyon bag always has water and is soft. Where as my OMS bags that have the dump on the bottom are always hard and dry. The dump is on the top of my H bag and bottom of my OMS bags.

nic_the_greek · June 19th, 2006, 04:37 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by caverkevin)

I have never looked at the model you are talking about. I would like to know something. Is the OPRV at the top or the bottom of the bag?

The OPRV is near the bottom of the bag.

TobinGeorge · June 19th, 2006, 05:03 PM

I've just finished a new SMB design. (Happy with it so far, testing continues) In this process I looked at a number of designs.

I learned a few things, and have a couple of theories.

True lift bags need an OPV near the top, otherwise you can't control the bag when using it to lift something. The gas is at the top after all.

Any inflatable intended to be launched from depth needs a OPV, to prevent the bag from rupturing. There are a number of good reasons to place this OPV near the bottom of the bag.

If you want the bag to stand up, any mass near the bottom helps and any mass at the top hurts.

If there is water in the bag when it is launched it will be expelled through the OPV as it vents if it is at or near the bottom of the bag.

How does water get into a closed or semi closed inflatable? Here's my theory: If you don't do a good job of evacuating all the air from the bag when you are at the surface, prior to use then the trapped air can be replaced with water as you descend.

For a semi closed bag the water just enters via the bottom baffled opening, for a closed bag it can enter via the oral inflate. The oral inflate is just a low opening force check valve.

Tobin

wilbo · June 19th, 2006, 05:04 PM

Nic,

it shouldn't leak.. (as you know) the only place for the bag to leak gas is through the OPV. check you have no crud in the OPV - and take apart if necessary..

I inflate mine off the drysuit hose (with varying success) and find if I inflate for about 3 seconds (6m) or when I start to feel a decent amount of resistance then let go, that I normally get it at least half full on the surface.

I was told that it does not matter if the blob is full inflated on the surface, as in the first place its line to the surface. If when at the surface - because of the swell - you need to inflate (orally or not) then so be it.

just my 2p.

Neil S · June 19th, 2006, 05:32 PM

I was having problems with mine not being fully inflated on the surface also.
Willo gave me some good advice though and he seems to have more joy when deploying his bag (although it doesn't stand as proud as the 3 foot bag).
I personally feel that the bag is far too wide and therefore requires a lot of gas. However it can be done.
My first tip is get yourself slightly negative and use your lungs to stay at your chosen depth (21 metres?)just as you attach the bag to the inflator, then as you begin to fill the DSMB exhale and this will counteract the positive buoyancy of the DSMB. This will help to get more gas into the DSMB and should lead to a better result.
Second tip is to go head down as you inflate the DSMB and fin downwards as you inflate it.
Not ideal and i have started to use an open ended bag as does the diver in GUE's skills DVD.

GUE state that deployment should always be controlled with all movements done as far away from the diver as possible. The 4.5 foot bag in my opinion does not reflect this as it is a hassle having to do the above.I think that the only reason that i have persevered is cos the DSMB cost a fortune and it seems a waste for it to be redundant.

However it may go in the private ads soon so keep your eyes peeled

Hope this helps

Neil

ppo2_diver · June 19th, 2006, 05:47 PM

What type of dry suit hose are you using? I found that when I used my Diving Concepts dry suit hose, I would get water in the bag. This is probably because the hose fitting is larger than the bag's inflator nipple. When I use my DUI suit with a standard sized hose, I get no water in the bag.

TobinGeorge · June 19th, 2006, 07:12 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by wilbo)

Nic,

it shouldn't leak.. (as you know) the only place for the bag to leak gas is through the OPV.

You are correct, it should not leak, however the inlet for power or oral inflate is also a spring poppet valve, and it can become contaminated too.

Flush some water through the fill.

Tobin

June 19th, 2006, 02:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
nic_the_greek(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gosport, Hants Posts: 86	Halcyon 4.5' CC Surface Marker I recently purchased one of these on eBay and have been having some problems when deploying it. I have tried orally inflating and using the drysuit feed from depths around 30m. On all occaisions, upon surfacing, there seems to be less air and a substantial amount of water in the blob than was present when I deployed it. There doesn't appear to be a leak so I am guessing that it is something to do with the over-pressure valve. Does anybody have any experience of this or have any advice? Cheers/Nic __________________ "God will forgive them. He'll forgive them and allow them into Heaven. I can't live with that." The Other Place

June 19th, 2006, 03:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
jb2cool(Offline) Padawan learner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire Posts: 804	OVP Valve is about 15% of the way up i believe. I use the 3' 3" version of this and get on with it ok. I orally inflate mine. There is a little water inside but nothing much. A good puff and it's on it's way. Stick a really good puff into it and it fires up like a ballistic missile. __________________ http://jb2cool.bulldoghome.com

June 19th, 2006, 04:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
nic_the_greek(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gosport, Hants Posts: 86	Quote: (Originally Posted by caverkevin) I have never looked at the model you are talking about. I would like to know something. Is the OPRV at the top or the bottom of the bag? The OPRV is near the bottom of the bag. __________________ "God will forgive them. He'll forgive them and allow them into Heaven. I can't live with that." The Other Place

June 19th, 2006, 05:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
wilbo (Online) Chimp 4 Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Swindon, UK Posts: 878	Nic, it shouldn't leak.. (as you know) the only place for the bag to leak gas is through the OPV. check you have no crud in the OPV - and take apart if necessary.. I inflate mine off the drysuit hose (with varying success) and find if I inflate for about 3 seconds (6m) or when I start to feel a decent amount of resistance then let go, that I normally get it at least half full on the surface. I was told that it does not matter if the blob is full inflated on the surface, as in the first place its line to the surface. If when at the surface - because of the swell - you need to inflate (orally or not) then so be it. just my 2p. __________________ Cheers! Wilbo DIR explorers: DIR Yorkshire Divers: YorkshireDivers One of the Foxturd chimps

June 19th, 2006, 05:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
ppo2_diver (Online) DIR Practitioner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Naperville, IL USA (Chicago Suburb) Posts: 108	What type of dry suit hose are you using? I found that when I used my Diving Concepts dry suit hose, I would get water in the bag. This is probably because the hose fitting is larger than the bag's inflator nipple. When I use my DUI suit with a standard sized hose, I get no water in the bag. __________________ Duane A. Johnson Precision Diving

June 19th, 2006, 02:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
caverkevin(Offline) Doing It Caverkevin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: North Kackilackie Posts: 363	I have never looked at the model you are talking about. I would like to know something. Is the OPRV at the top or the bottom of the bag?

June 19th, 2006, 03:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
caverkevin(Offline) Doing It Caverkevin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: North Kackilackie Posts: 363	Just wondering becasue my 80 pound Halcyon bag always has water and is soft. Where as my OMS bags that have the dump on the bottom are always hard and dry. The dump is on the top of my H bag and bottom of my OMS bags.

June 19th, 2006, 05:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
TobinGeorge (Online) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 569	I've just finished a new SMB design. (Happy with it so far, testing continues) In this process I looked at a number of designs. I learned a few things, and have a couple of theories. True lift bags need an OPV near the top, otherwise you can't control the bag when using it to lift something. The gas is at the top after all. Any inflatable intended to be launched from depth needs a OPV, to prevent the bag from rupturing. There are a number of good reasons to place this OPV near the bottom of the bag. If you want the bag to stand up, any mass near the bottom helps and any mass at the top hurts. If there is water in the bag when it is launched it will be expelled through the OPV as it vents if it is at or near the bottom of the bag. How does water get into a closed or semi closed inflatable? Here's my theory: If you don't do a good job of evacuating all the air from the bag when you are at the surface, prior to use then the trapped air can be replaced with water as you descend. For a semi closed bag the water just enters via the bottom baffled opening, for a closed bag it can enter via the oral inflate. The oral inflate is just a low opening force check valve. Tobin

June 19th, 2006, 05:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
Neil S (Online) New Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Liverpool Posts: 275	I was having problems with mine not being fully inflated on the surface also. Willo gave me some good advice though and he seems to have more joy when deploying his bag (although it doesn't stand as proud as the 3 foot bag). I personally feel that the bag is far too wide and therefore requires a lot of gas. However it can be done. My first tip is get yourself slightly negative and use your lungs to stay at your chosen depth (21 metres?)just as you attach the bag to the inflator, then as you begin to fill the DSMB exhale and this will counteract the positive buoyancy of the DSMB. This will help to get more gas into the DSMB and should lead to a better result. Second tip is to go head down as you inflate the DSMB and fin downwards as you inflate it. Not ideal and i have started to use an open ended bag as does the diver in GUE's skills DVD. GUE state that deployment should always be controlled with all movements done as far away from the diver as possible. The 4.5 foot bag in my opinion does not reflect this as it is a hassle having to do the above.I think that the only reason that i have persevered is cos the DSMB cost a fortune and it seems a waste for it to be redundant. However it may go in the private ads soon so keep your eyes peeled Hope this helps Neil

June 19th, 2006, 07:12 PM	#10 (permalink)
TobinGeorge (Online) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 569	Quote: (Originally Posted by wilbo) Nic, it shouldn't leak.. (as you know) the only place for the bag to leak gas is through the OPV. You are correct, it should not leak, however the inlet for power or oral inflate is also a spring poppet valve, and it can become contaminated too. Flush some water through the fill. Tobin