An object lesson in what training is good for - Page 2

Mark Chase · February 5th, 2006, 08:24 PM

It must be an American thing because pretty much all divers who use a wing use a long hose rig in the UK so it never raises an eyebrow. Where I come from in SE england if you get on a boat to dive a 30m+ wreck most if not all divers will be on wing long hose and twin set but there are very few DIR divers diving on the SE cost.

My PADI instructor Joup (German fella) used a long hose rig with his single and BCD. However he used the long hose as a donation reg not a primary and had it clipped off like a PADI octo and didnt donate from the mouth.

There is still a strong single jacket BCD 15ltr and pony group in some of the BSAC clubs who use the conventional hoses in the 30-40m range. They tend to dive as a club and as such their rigs and standards for OOA ascents would be damaged by the use of donation from the mouth and the long hose system. They argue it would be a step back wards in safety not a step forward unless adopted by the whole club or BSAC as an organization.

Following a BSAC OOA ascent system I think its reasonable to say the long hose would just get in the way.

I have always wanted to ask a BSAC instructor how they would cope with an OOA in an overhead environment where divers could not get close enough to air share?

Are there any on here?

ATB

Mark Chase

GoDiva · February 5th, 2006, 08:27 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I used to turn up an flash my highest qualification card hoping to get put in with the better divers and perhaps do a little bit bigger dive. I have learned my lesson and now offer over my PADI AOW card and tell them I have about 60 dives and hopefully they leave me alone.

Well, AOW is all I have, so don't get them used to the fact that somebody diving a wing set up is automatically highly qualified

(although the instructors reaction to me asking whether I had enough dives to start the AOW, and flicking through my logbook with a mere 24 dives "you have a lot of experience

")

Quote: (Originally Posted by SeaJay)

Your shine and black is a THREAT to them... And to deal with that, they want to do everything they can to convince themselves that YOU are "wrong," not them.

Now, why does this remind me of the fact that diving is considered a male, macho sport? :p

*JohnKendall* · February 5th, 2006, 08:28 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I have always wanted to ask a BSAC instructor how they would cope with an OOA in an overhead environment where divers could not get close enough to air share?

Are there any on here?

Well I'd donate the reg in my mouth that is on a long hose and swap to my Necklaced Backup.

J
BSAC OWI
DO BSAC52 CUUEG

Mark Chase · February 5th, 2006, 08:55 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall)

Well I'd donate the reg in my mouth that is on a long hose and swap to my Necklaced Backup.

J
BSAC OWI
DO BSAC52 CUUEG

Hi John,

Yes i am aware that there are a few BSAC DO's who actively promote the use of the long hose, but I was referring to the ones who are totally against it. Following the alleged letter incident supposedly banning the use of long hose in instruction (That may or may not of actually happened depending who you talk to) I read posts from several BSAC instructors who were against it

So the question is IF you were not using the long hose and were using the "conventional" BSAC rig how would you deal with an OOA inside a wreck in a narrow passage?

Please remove your DIR chip and insert the BSAC one :D

If I haven't made it PERFECTLY clear I have ALWAYS used a long hose rig on a twin set and now I use it on a single rig as well. I think it's a much better system than the PADI Octo.

If anything my question is debating the validity of the BSAC position.

ATB

Mark Chase

*JohnKendall* · February 5th, 2006, 09:12 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Hi John,

Yes i am aware that there are a few BSAC DO's who actively promote the use of the long hose, but I was referring to the ones who are totally against it. Following the alleged letter incident supposedly banning the use of long hose in instruction (That may or may not of actually happened depending who you talk to) I read posts from several BSAC instructors who were against it

So the question is IF you were not using the long hose and were using the "conventional" BSAC rig how would you deal with an OOA inside a wreck in a narrow passage?

Please remove your DIR chip and insert the BSAC one :D

If I haven't made it PERFECTLY clear I have ALWAYS used a long hose rig on a twin set and now I use it on a single rig as well. I think it's a much better system than the PADI Octo.

If anything my question is debating the validity of the BSAC position.

ATB

Mark Chase

Um, well Um, Yeah.

First off, The BSAC official line is that you can't teach Primary donation at entry level before a student has been taught "conventional" AAS.

This was what I was told at the time by the NDO (Lizzie Bird), and since I was the person kicking up most of the fuss I got most of the flack.

J

*JohnKendall* · February 5th, 2006, 09:15 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

So the question is IF you were not using the long hose and were using the "conventional" BSAC rig how would you deal with an OOA inside a wreck in a narrow passage?

Please remove your DIR chip and insert the BSAC one :D

Sorry, Forgot to answer this bit

Although I can't actually do it. I think most people who dive overheads without thinking through this kind of question are basically incidents waiting to happen, regardless of their training regieme. BSAC don't teach overhead diving (or at least they don't to the best of my knowledge) although their upcoming trimix courses scare the life out of me.

J

Tricky · February 5th, 2006, 09:29 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall)

...although their upcoming trimix courses scare the life out of me...

Care to elborate on this? I'm interested to know why, although I know very little about the proposed BSAC mix course.

*JohnKendall* · February 5th, 2006, 09:39 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tricky)

Care to elborate on this? I'm interested to know why, although I know very little about the proposed BSAC mix course.

All of this is very much "in my humble opinion" and should be treated as such.

My background - TDI Trimix and GUE Tech1, Mix diving for about 4 years.

BSAC are somewhat insular in some of their ideas, and very much try to cater to the lowest common denominator. Throughout their Nitrox courses you don't really learn anything about what is actually needed, you learn NO decompression, simply how to use the idiot proof BSAC '88s. The skill level I have seen from people coming through the Advanced Nitrox courses is really low (Now I don't mean that everyone coming through BSAC nitrox training has poor skills, but I have seen a lot of people with very poor skills)
Now they are introducing Trimix courses, What are they going to teach for Deco? What about PPO2? and what are the skill levels going to be? I've heard rumours of a "basic Trimix" course being taught in a weekend!!!!!! I'm sure that'll be fine if you get someone coming in with High skills already but for your average BSAC diver?

Anyway, that is why I'm scared of BSAC's trimix courses

J

Tricky · February 5th, 2006, 10:22 PM

Thanks for sharing your views. At least one, possibly two, of the guys involved in developing the course are members of my club. I keep meaning to ask them about it but never seem to get the chance. These guys are both very experienced divers, doing a fair amount of trimix diving ever year (although mostly RB not OC) as far as I can tell. One of them is/was a TDI instructor.

I would hope that, given the knowledge and experience of the people involved in devloping it, the course will be thorough and a good equivalent to the courses available from other agencies at the moment. It is worrying if they're proposing doing a basic course in a weekend though. Personally, I'm going with TDI for my trimix training (booked before deciding to take the plunge with fundies), and wonder if it is worth BSAC's effort to introduce the course, given the number of established options available..

SeaJay · February 5th, 2006, 10:56 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben_Ca)

Hey Sea Jay,
Nice seeing you online again... I still refer people interested in DIR to your Fundies report... Lyn's transition is also good reading.

Great to see you, too, Ben. :D

Very cool that I could donate something (report) that may be of use to someone. That's very cool. Since I have so often used so much of what others have learned and are willing to share, knowing that people still read my Fundies report makes me feel like I could "give back" a little. That's just plain neat.

I've been diving my ass off since I left CensorBoard. I miss the people there and the lighthearted enjoyment of talking about diving, but I don't miss the attitudes of the "holier than thous." No names mentioned, of course - they know who they are.

I started a discussion forum similar to this one, but with no censorship whatsoever. After a brief stint of a lot of activity, it seemed that everyone said everything that they had always wanted to say but weren't allowed to... And then it was dead.

When my dive lifestyle got really busy, I pulled the board - it just wasn't worth trying to hold on to. Instead, I got heavy into artifact hunting (and selling for mucho profits) and into two or three big projects, including one that'll be aired on the Science Channel and the Discovery Channel this Spring. I'm pretty stoked about it all.

This forum completely rocks - people seem to be themselves, there's nobody here that's a jerk, and the whole "slant" is towards the things that interest the DIR diver. I have linked my site to this board in hopes that it'll grow.

...And there's lots and lots to learn here - people with a load of education and experience, and some combination thereof. What a phenominal place.

...But I do more lurking today than I used to. Too busy diving.

February 5th, 2006, 08:24 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 905	It must be an American thing because pretty much all divers who use a wing use a long hose rig in the UK so it never raises an eyebrow. Where I come from in SE england if you get on a boat to dive a 30m+ wreck most if not all divers will be on wing long hose and twin set but there are very few DIR divers diving on the SE cost. My PADI instructor Joup (German fella) used a long hose rig with his single and BCD. However he used the long hose as a donation reg not a primary and had it clipped off like a PADI octo and didnt donate from the mouth. There is still a strong single jacket BCD 15ltr and pony group in some of the BSAC clubs who use the conventional hoses in the 30-40m range. They tend to dive as a club and as such their rigs and standards for OOA ascents would be damaged by the use of donation from the mouth and the long hose system. They argue it would be a step back wards in safety not a step forward unless adopted by the whole club or BSAC as an organization. Following a BSAC OOA ascent system I think its reasonable to say the long hose would just get in the way. I have always wanted to ask a BSAC instructor how they would cope with an OOA in an overhead environment where divers could not get close enough to air share? Are there any on here? ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration diver in the village

February 5th, 2006, 08:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,115	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I have always wanted to ask a BSAC instructor how they would cope with an OOA in an overhead environment where divers could not get close enough to air share? Are there any on here? Well I'd donate the reg in my mouth that is on a long hose and swap to my Necklaced Backup. J BSAC OWI DO BSAC52 CUUEG __________________ John Kendall http://www.guetraining.com/ GUE Instruction, Santi and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Santi Shop

February 5th, 2006, 08:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
Mark Chase(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent England Posts: 905	Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall) Well I'd donate the reg in my mouth that is on a long hose and swap to my Necklaced Backup. J BSAC OWI DO BSAC52 CUUEG Hi John, Yes i am aware that there are a few BSAC DO's who actively promote the use of the long hose, but I was referring to the ones who are totally against it. Following the alleged letter incident supposedly banning the use of long hose in instruction (That may or may not of actually happened depending who you talk to) I read posts from several BSAC instructors who were against it So the question is IF you were not using the long hose and were using the "conventional" BSAC rig how would you deal with an OOA inside a wreck in a narrow passage? Please remove your DIR chip and insert the BSAC one :D If I haven't made it PERFECTLY clear I have ALWAYS used a long hose rig on a twin set and now I use it on a single rig as well. I think it's a much better system than the PADI Octo. If anything my question is debating the validity of the BSAC position. ATB Mark Chase __________________ The only DIR Inspiration diver in the village

February 5th, 2006, 09:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,115	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Hi John, Yes i am aware that there are a few BSAC DO's who actively promote the use of the long hose, but I was referring to the ones who are totally against it. Following the alleged letter incident supposedly banning the use of long hose in instruction (That may or may not of actually happened depending who you talk to) I read posts from several BSAC instructors who were against it So the question is IF you were not using the long hose and were using the "conventional" BSAC rig how would you deal with an OOA inside a wreck in a narrow passage? Please remove your DIR chip and insert the BSAC one :D If I haven't made it PERFECTLY clear I have ALWAYS used a long hose rig on a twin set and now I use it on a single rig as well. I think it's a much better system than the PADI Octo. If anything my question is debating the validity of the BSAC position. ATB Mark Chase Um, well Um, Yeah. First off, The BSAC official line is that you can't teach Primary donation at entry level before a student has been taught "conventional" AAS. This was what I was told at the time by the NDO (Lizzie Bird), and since I was the person kicking up most of the fuss I got most of the flack. J __________________ John Kendall http://www.guetraining.com/ GUE Instruction, Santi and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Santi Shop

February 5th, 2006, 09:15 PM	#16 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,115	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) So the question is IF you were not using the long hose and were using the "conventional" BSAC rig how would you deal with an OOA inside a wreck in a narrow passage? Please remove your DIR chip and insert the BSAC one :D Sorry, Forgot to answer this bit Although I can't actually do it. I think most people who dive overheads without thinking through this kind of question are basically incidents waiting to happen, regardless of their training regieme. BSAC don't teach overhead diving (or at least they don't to the best of my knowledge) although their upcoming trimix courses scare the life out of me. J __________________ John Kendall http://www.guetraining.com/ GUE Instruction, Santi and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Santi Shop

February 5th, 2006, 08:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
GoDiva(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 590	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I used to turn up an flash my highest qualification card hoping to get put in with the better divers and perhaps do a little bit bigger dive. I have learned my lesson and now offer over my PADI AOW card and tell them I have about 60 dives and hopefully they leave me alone. Well, AOW is all I have, so don't get them used to the fact that somebody diving a wing set up is automatically highly qualified (although the instructors reaction to me asking whether I had enough dives to start the AOW, and flicking through my logbook with a mere 24 dives "you have a lot of experience ") Quote: (Originally Posted by SeaJay) Your shine and black is a THREAT to them... And to deal with that, they want to do everything they can to convince themselves that YOU are "wrong," not them. Now, why does this remind me of the fact that diving is considered a male, macho sport? :p

February 5th, 2006, 09:29 PM	#17 (permalink)
Tricky(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Reading, Berkshire Posts: 555	Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall) ...although their upcoming trimix courses scare the life out of me... Care to elborate on this? I'm interested to know why, although I know very little about the proposed BSAC mix course. __________________ "I know that you believe that you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant." "Make me one with everything" said the Mystic to the Hamburger vendor. Sigmastorm RPG - Play online now free! UK Diving Forum Sryth: A Free Online Text RPG Join the Adventure! Fallen Sword: Free online RPG

February 5th, 2006, 09:39 PM	#18 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,115	Quote: (Originally Posted by Tricky) Care to elborate on this? I'm interested to know why, although I know very little about the proposed BSAC mix course. All of this is very much "in my humble opinion" and should be treated as such. My background - TDI Trimix and GUE Tech1, Mix diving for about 4 years. BSAC are somewhat insular in some of their ideas, and very much try to cater to the lowest common denominator. Throughout their Nitrox courses you don't really learn anything about what is actually needed, you learn NO decompression, simply how to use the idiot proof BSAC '88s. The skill level I have seen from people coming through the Advanced Nitrox courses is really low (Now I don't mean that everyone coming through BSAC nitrox training has poor skills, but I have seen a lot of people with very poor skills) Now they are introducing Trimix courses, What are they going to teach for Deco? What about PPO2? and what are the skill levels going to be? I've heard rumours of a "basic Trimix" course being taught in a weekend!!!!!! I'm sure that'll be fine if you get someone coming in with High skills already but for your average BSAC diver? Anyway, that is why I'm scared of BSAC's trimix courses J __________________ John Kendall http://www.guetraining.com/ GUE Instruction, Santi and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Santi Shop

February 5th, 2006, 10:22 PM	#19 (permalink)
Tricky(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Reading, Berkshire Posts: 555	Thanks for sharing your views. At least one, possibly two, of the guys involved in developing the course are members of my club. I keep meaning to ask them about it but never seem to get the chance. These guys are both very experienced divers, doing a fair amount of trimix diving ever year (although mostly RB not OC) as far as I can tell. One of them is/was a TDI instructor. I would hope that, given the knowledge and experience of the people involved in devloping it, the course will be thorough and a good equivalent to the courses available from other agencies at the moment. It is worrying if they're proposing doing a basic course in a weekend though. Personally, I'm going with TDI for my trimix training (booked before deciding to take the plunge with fundies), and wonder if it is worth BSAC's effort to introduce the course, given the number of established options available.. __________________ "I know that you believe that you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant." "Make me one with everything" said the Mystic to the Hamburger vendor. Sigmastorm RPG - Play online now free! UK Diving Forum Sryth: A Free Online Text RPG Join the Adventure! Fallen Sword: Free online RPG

February 5th, 2006, 10:56 PM	#20 (permalink)
SeaJay(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Beaufort, SC, USA Posts: 165	Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben_Ca) Hey Sea Jay, Nice seeing you online again... I still refer people interested in DIR to your Fundies report... Lyn's transition is also good reading. Great to see you, too, Ben. :D Very cool that I could donate something (report) that may be of use to someone. That's very cool. Since I have so often used so much of what others have learned and are willing to share, knowing that people still read my Fundies report makes me feel like I could "give back" a little. That's just plain neat. I've been diving my ass off since I left CensorBoard. I miss the people there and the lighthearted enjoyment of talking about diving, but I don't miss the attitudes of the "holier than thous." No names mentioned, of course - they know who they are. I started a discussion forum similar to this one, but with no censorship whatsoever. After a brief stint of a lot of activity, it seemed that everyone said everything that they had always wanted to say but weren't allowed to... And then it was dead. When my dive lifestyle got really busy, I pulled the board - it just wasn't worth trying to hold on to. Instead, I got heavy into artifact hunting (and selling for mucho profits) and into two or three big projects, including one that'll be aired on the Science Channel and the Discovery Channel this Spring. I'm pretty stoked about it all. This forum completely rocks - people seem to be themselves, there's nobody here that's a jerk, and the whole "slant" is towards the things that interest the DIR diver. I have linked my site to this board in hopes that it'll grow. ...And there's lots and lots to learn here - people with a load of education and experience, and some combination thereof. What a phenominal place. ...But I do more lurking today than I used to. Too busy diving.