DIR trajectory...

keylimepie · December 13th, 2005, 11:07 AM

OK, apols in advance as this is going to be a long post, and if by the end of it you think I'm deranged or too fecking anal, then just say so

.

I'm thinking about DIR, which you'll know if you can remember my last post, and I have a question or perhaps 2 about when and how. Below, I have added some info about me and the kind of long-term plan I keep thinking about, and wondered what you thought about it. I know it incorporates issues about kit purchase, (I think I'm somehow going to have to develop that gradually), but I am looking for your thoughts about the "career trajectory" thing (if that can be separated from the kit question). OK, here goes...

Me:

1. Roughly halfway through BSAC Sports Diver training, with about 30 dives, mostly in the sea in various places, that I have accumulated since May 05.
2. Ageing too fecking quickly...

3. Want to be challenged by the diving I do, but also want this to be done in as safe a manner as possible, hence my interest in DIR.
4. Devloping an interest in wrecks, but would love to do some cave diving in the future, seen some fab video clips. Done a bit of ordinary pot holing in my youth and loads of climbing/mountaineering for, well, longer than I care to remember.

The Plan:
1. Complete my SD training soon, and build up my experience (that's the eay bit

)
2. I'm going to Mull in July and have been thinking I need to get a pony for that, and really should have one asap as my depth range is progressing beyond 20m.
3. The pony - gives me redundancy = good thing. And it also allows me to start the kit journey. Planned on getting a 3L Luxfer cylinder, to side sling, with a DS4, SPG on a 6" hose and an ATX40 or 50. I presently use a set of ATX40s with a DST4 with a BuddyTD jacket. I was thinking that I could use the DS4 and new reg when I plan to move to a twinset. In the process, I would exchange the DST4 for another DS4 (so would then have 2) and could change the hose lengths on my apeks regs to conform to the DIR system.
4. After what I hope would be an enjoyable set of dives during the summer (as many as I can), I was then thinking asbout doing a twinset familiarisation course perhaps Sept/Oct time, with someone like DalesDivers.
5. If that goes ok, then it would get the kit (although this plan is still a tad rusty).
6. Develop my experience of using a twinset over the winter, refine kit etc
7. Dare I say it...enrol on Fundies c. spring 07.

As I said above, I know it may be difficult to separate this from the kit question, and I know about the argument which says if you think you need a pony then you probably need a twinset, but I don't think there is any way I could afford to move to a twinset earlier, and I'm not sure I would be ready for it psychologically. I have also seen posts where people have said you don't need to be on a twinset to do fundies, but as the safety issue is important to me, I wouldn't want to do fundies if not doing it using a twinset. (And beofre you say it, I know lack of money is compromising the safety issue, but then what's new!)

Right, I'm finished. Thanks for bearing with me...

Dave

Jonathan · December 13th, 2005, 11:20 AM

Hi Dave,

that is a way of doing it. Or another suggestion would be leave the pony, replace the BCD with wing and backplate. Take fundies. Get some dives in with GUE guys. Then think about moving to twins - you've already got the backplate, and you can use the single wing for holidays.

That's the route I'm taking (currently post fundies pre twins), it's the route others on here have taken too.

Cheers

Jonathan

*JohnKendall* · December 13th, 2005, 11:41 AM

Hi Dave

Honestly the best Advice I can give you is to do Fundies earlier rather than Later. Do it now in fact, do it before you start to engrain bad habbits. There is nowhere in the DIR philosophy for a pony. You are right that if you need more redundancy than just your buddy, then you need twins. If you want to get a pony, just so you can feel safer then that's another matter and we can show you why it's not a great idea either.

Quote:

3. Want to be challenged by the diving I do, but also want this to be done in as safe a manner as possible, hence my interest in DIR.

This seems to be contradicted by the route you are thinking of taking, basically it looks to me like you want to be challenged with your diving, so you are going to avoid the training and equipment and try and go straight to the experience. Which is fine as long as you have no issues.

HTH
J

*Clare Gledhill* · December 13th, 2005, 12:17 PM

Hi Dave.

You seem to be going through the same thought process that I did - so maybe I can help you think a few things out a little.

Seems to me that people learn to dive and it is all just fun.

Then they do a few dives, hear about a few things going slightly wrong or have a few moments under water where they would like to be a bit more comfortable and start to think what they can do to address this. It's called growing up I think...

Twins are seen as being for technical divers, so a pony is a logical next step - certainly it was for me. It gave me the 'redundancy' that I was looking for - but I'm not sure I thought it through properly - possibly reflected in the fact that it accompanied me on only about 15 dives and then got sold through ebay.

A pony will cost you about 100 and then you have the cost of the regs as well so about £300. About the same as fundies - so we can put the cost bit to one side can't we (for arguement's sake

).

So - what next for you? I'd go with the fundies as soon as possible argument too - but let me explain why.

A pony is carried with you on every dive but designed not to be used - it is redundancy only. Why would you need a pony.... it wouldn't let you go deeper, or longer (remember a pony is for emergencies only) it is your get out of jail free card (hopefully) if you face running out of air.

In DIR our buddy is our redundancy - and as John sets out, if we need more than our buddy can provide (or we can provide to our buddy) then we need to consider moving to twins. Our buddy is much more than a spare gas supply though - they provide another brain (well most of the time

) and add to the pleasure of the diving (OK - most of the time there too

)

DIR F would take you through gas planning and single tank shutdowns (to ensure that you are not placed in the position of needing a pony) and help make you more comfortable in the water so that the dives that you do are more enjoyable. There are many single tank recreational DIR divers who you can dive with to gain experience - although what you learn on fundies can assist you with diving with your club too.

However, congratulations on thinking your diving through and, whatever you decide to do, keep coming back with the questions.

**Howard Payne** · December 13th, 2005, 12:32 PM

You can buy my pony if you like. 3l faber, r390 2nd mk25 1st, suunto spg on 6" hose, ap valves sling for side or front slung. All recently serviced and cylinder tested. £200

My betamax video recorder, sony walkman, sodastream, b&w telly and a selection of kipper ties and flares are also available to a good home as well! lol

keylimepie · December 13th, 2005, 03:55 PM

Ok, if I went down the route of getting a backplate and wing for single tank diving, would it be ok to use the tank I have now, which is a faber 12L (not a dumpy) with a din convertible valve?

Dave

*Rich Walker* · December 13th, 2005, 03:57 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by keylimepie)

Ok, if I went down the route of getting a backplate and wing for single tank diving, would it be ok to use the tank I have now, which is a faber 12L (not a dumpy) with a din convertible valve?

Dave

You'd be absolutely fine with that.

If you want to have a go on one, let me know and we'll try and sort something out.

Rich

Gary Moffat · December 13th, 2005, 03:58 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by keylimepie)

Ok, if I went down the route of getting a backplate and wing for single tank diving, would it be ok to use the tank I have now, which is a faber 12L (not a dumpy) with a din convertible valve?

Dave

Yes no problem.

You might want to take the handle off it and swap the knob for a rubber tactile one. Consider removing the boot.

I dive a single wing also with 15 Faber.

Gary.

StSomewhere · December 13th, 2005, 04:11 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gledders)

In DIR our buddy is our redundancy - and as John sets out, if we need more than our buddy can provide (or we can provide to our buddy) then we need to consider moving to twins. Our buddy is much more than a spare gas supply though - they provide another brain (well most of the time

) and add to the pleasure of the diving (OK - most of the time there too

)

Well said! What I would add is that the DIR team as redundancy is not only another brain, but another brain trained to react in exactly the same way you would be trained to.

The stowed reg on a pony bottle doesn't know when you have an emergency, or know the best way to deploy itself or to make sure the gas is available. But a DIR buddy will.

JimC · December 13th, 2005, 05:28 PM

IMHO, get the DIR-F first. SO many reasons, aside from all the money you'll save by not spending it on junk.

December 13th, 2005, 11:07 AM	#1 (permalink)
keylimepie(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sunderland Posts: 123	DIR trajectory... OK, apols in advance as this is going to be a long post, and if by the end of it you think I'm deranged or too fecking anal, then just say so. I'm thinking about DIR, which you'll know if you can remember my last post, and I have a question or perhaps 2 about when and how. Below, I have added some info about me and the kind of long-term plan I keep thinking about, and wondered what you thought about it. I know it incorporates issues about kit purchase, (I think I'm somehow going to have to develop that gradually), but I am looking for your thoughts about the "career trajectory" thing (if that can be separated from the kit question). OK, here goes... Me: 1. Roughly halfway through BSAC Sports Diver training, with about 30 dives, mostly in the sea in various places, that I have accumulated since May 05. 2. Ageing too fecking quickly... 3. Want to be challenged by the diving I do, but also want this to be done in as safe a manner as possible, hence my interest in DIR. 4. Devloping an interest in wrecks, but would love to do some cave diving in the future, seen some fab video clips. Done a bit of ordinary pot holing in my youth and loads of climbing/mountaineering for, well, longer than I care to remember. The Plan: 1. Complete my SD training soon, and build up my experience (that's the eay bit ) 2. I'm going to Mull in July and have been thinking I need to get a pony for that, and really should have one asap as my depth range is progressing beyond 20m. 3. The pony - gives me redundancy = good thing. And it also allows me to start the kit journey. Planned on getting a 3L Luxfer cylinder, to side sling, with a DS4, SPG on a 6" hose and an ATX40 or 50. I presently use a set of ATX40s with a DST4 with a BuddyTD jacket. I was thinking that I could use the DS4 and new reg when I plan to move to a twinset. In the process, I would exchange the DST4 for another DS4 (so would then have 2) and could change the hose lengths on my apeks regs to conform to the DIR system. 4. After what I hope would be an enjoyable set of dives during the summer (as many as I can), I was then thinking asbout doing a twinset familiarisation course perhaps Sept/Oct time, with someone like DalesDivers. 5. If that goes ok, then it would get the kit (although this plan is still a tad rusty). 6. Develop my experience of using a twinset over the winter, refine kit etc 7. Dare I say it...enrol on Fundies c. spring 07. As I said above, I know it may be difficult to separate this from the kit question, and I know about the argument which says if you think you need a pony then you probably need a twinset, but I don't think there is any way I could afford to move to a twinset earlier, and I'm not sure I would be ready for it psychologically. I have also seen posts where people have said you don't need to be on a twinset to do fundies, but as the safety issue is important to me, I wouldn't want to do fundies if not doing it using a twinset. (And beofre you say it, I know lack of money is compromising the safety issue, but then what's new!) Right, I'm finished. Thanks for bearing with me... Dave

December 13th, 2005, 12:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
Clare Gledhill(Offline) GUE Instructor Site Admin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,547	Hi Dave. You seem to be going through the same thought process that I did - so maybe I can help you think a few things out a little. Seems to me that people learn to dive and it is all just fun. Then they do a few dives, hear about a few things going slightly wrong or have a few moments under water where they would like to be a bit more comfortable and start to think what they can do to address this. It's called growing up I think... Twins are seen as being for technical divers, so a pony is a logical next step - certainly it was for me. It gave me the 'redundancy' that I was looking for - but I'm not sure I thought it through properly - possibly reflected in the fact that it accompanied me on only about 15 dives and then got sold through ebay. A pony will cost you about 100 and then you have the cost of the regs as well so about £300. About the same as fundies - so we can put the cost bit to one side can't we (for arguement's sake ). So - what next for you? I'd go with the fundies as soon as possible argument too - but let me explain why. A pony is carried with you on every dive but designed not to be used - it is redundancy only. Why would you need a pony.... it wouldn't let you go deeper, or longer (remember a pony is for emergencies only) it is your get out of jail free card (hopefully) if you face running out of air. In DIR our buddy is our redundancy - and as John sets out, if we need more than our buddy can provide (or we can provide to our buddy) then we need to consider moving to twins. Our buddy is much more than a spare gas supply though - they provide another brain (well most of the time ) and add to the pleasure of the diving (OK - most of the time there too ) DIR F would take you through gas planning and single tank shutdowns (to ensure that you are not placed in the position of needing a pony) and help make you more comfortable in the water so that the dives that you do are more enjoyable. There are many single tank recreational DIR divers who you can dive with to gain experience - although what you learn on fundies can assist you with diving with your club too. However, congratulations on thinking your diving through and, whatever you decide to do, keep coming back with the questions. __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk Last edited by Clare Gledhill; December 13th, 2005 at 04:10 PM.

December 13th, 2005, 03:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
keylimepie(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sunderland Posts: 123	tank question Ok, if I went down the route of getting a backplate and wing for single tank diving, would it be ok to use the tank I have now, which is a faber 12L (not a dumpy) with a din convertible valve? Dave

December 13th, 2005, 04:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
StSomewhere(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Far from deep water Posts: 43	Quote: (Originally Posted by Gledders) In DIR our buddy is our redundancy - and as John sets out, if we need more than our buddy can provide (or we can provide to our buddy) then we need to consider moving to twins. Our buddy is much more than a spare gas supply though - they provide another brain (well most of the time ) and add to the pleasure of the diving (OK - most of the time there too ) Well said! What I would add is that the DIR team as redundancy is not only another brain, but another brain trained to react in exactly the same way you would be trained to. The stowed reg on a pony bottle doesn't know when you have an emergency, or know the best way to deploy itself or to make sure the gas is available. But a DIR buddy will. __________________ I gotta go where its warm...

December 13th, 2005, 11:20 AM	#2 (permalink)
Jonathan(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 215	Hi Dave, that is a way of doing it. Or another suggestion would be leave the pony, replace the BCD with wing and backplate. Take fundies. Get some dives in with GUE guys. Then think about moving to twins - you've already got the backplate, and you can use the single wing for holidays. That's the route I'm taking (currently post fundies pre twins), it's the route others on here have taken too. Cheers Jonathan

December 13th, 2005, 11:41 AM	#3 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,102	Hi Dave Honestly the best Advice I can give you is to do Fundies earlier rather than Later. Do it now in fact, do it before you start to engrain bad habbits. There is nowhere in the DIR philosophy for a pony. You are right that if you need more redundancy than just your buddy, then you need twins. If you want to get a pony, just so you can feel safer then that's another matter and we can show you why it's not a great idea either. Quote: 3. Want to be challenged by the diving I do, but also want this to be done in as safe a manner as possible, hence my interest in DIR. This seems to be contradicted by the route you are thinking of taking, basically it looks to me like you want to be challenged with your diving, so you are going to avoid the training and equipment and try and go straight to the experience. Which is fine as long as you have no issues. HTH J

December 13th, 2005, 12:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
Howard Payne (Online) Strokey Dokily Doo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,210	You can buy my pony if you like. 3l faber, r390 2nd mk25 1st, suunto spg on 6" hose, ap valves sling for side or front slung. All recently serviced and cylinder tested. £200 My betamax video recorder, sony walkman, sodastream, b&w telly and a selection of kipper ties and flares are also available to a good home as well! lol

December 13th, 2005, 03:57 PM	#7 (permalink)
Rich Walker(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sheffield Posts: 300	Quote: (Originally Posted by keylimepie) Ok, if I went down the route of getting a backplate and wing for single tank diving, would it be ok to use the tank I have now, which is a faber 12L (not a dumpy) with a din convertible valve? Dave You'd be absolutely fine with that. If you want to have a go on one, let me know and we'll try and sort something out. Rich

December 13th, 2005, 03:58 PM	#8 (permalink)
Gary Moffat(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: East Lothian Posts: 120	Quote: (Originally Posted by keylimepie) Ok, if I went down the route of getting a backplate and wing for single tank diving, would it be ok to use the tank I have now, which is a faber 12L (not a dumpy) with a din convertible valve? Dave Yes no problem. You might want to take the handle off it and swap the knob for a rubber tactile one. Consider removing the boot. I dive a single wing also with 15 Faber. Gary.

December 13th, 2005, 05:28 PM	#10 (permalink)
JimC(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ottawa Posts: 18	IMHO, get the DIR-F first. SO many reasons, aside from all the money you'll save by not spending it on junk.