what's a cave cut suit?

vid · December 7th, 2005, 06:56 PM

can someone please explain what exactly the cave cut suit is and why it's used / advantages over a standard suit please?

ta in advance

vid

Rick · December 7th, 2005, 07:38 PM

Cave Cut is a fair bit snugger in the legs and a bit looser on the upper body!

If you want your suit CC, then DUI insist you sign the waiver which omits them from the consequencies should the suit fit improperly!

Joe Hesketh · December 7th, 2005, 07:48 PM

It's a cut of suit that DUI will do if specified when ordering a Signature Series (ie MTM) suit. Someone who actually has one will be able to give more precise details, though I think generally you get a closer fitting suit for the same set of measurements, though it's still fairly roomy in the shoulders to give flexibility on shut downs.

The name I think stems from the suits the WKPP got cut years ago. The suits they were having made kept on coming back too baggy despite being given accurate measurements, so they tried tricking DUI by deliberately shaving lengths off the measurements they sent back to the factory. Today, they will make the closer fitting suit without you having to tweak the measurements, but they still make you sign a waiver as, in their eyes (as compared to the normal suits they make) they are making you a suit which is deliberatly too small for you.

The advantages over a normal Signature Series would I guess be a percentage increment in the differences a Sig Series (made for 'you') would have over a 'standard' (ie off the peg) suit. That would be more streamlining, less gas migration, better fit, etc. The extent to which that is the case will depend on whether you're lucky enough to be roughly the same size and shape as a stock suit, though DUI do have some fairly offbeat ideas as to what a "normal" person looks like, plus they can vary from suit to suit.

EDIT - damn, Rick snuck in while I was typing...

**Alastair** · December 8th, 2005, 12:16 AM

From what I heard they make the standard MTM suits to cope with the change in physical shape for a person over 10 years. That tends to mean that when you get it, it's not a good fit but you will grow into it as you put weight on!

vid · December 8th, 2005, 09:51 AM

thanks folks for the above

it seems it's all a matter of how "tight" you want the suit, which I can understand theoretically, but surely the difference between a MTM and a cave cut MTM would be insignificant (unless we're talking "drainpipe" legs)?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Alastair)

it's not a good fit but you will grow into it as you put weight on!

oops, what happens if you've already put the weight on????

vid

*peter_steinhoff* · December 23rd, 2005, 02:52 AM

The difference between a cave-cut and a regular made-to-measure could actually be significant. The cave cut is simply as tight as possible. One reason for cavers to get the tight fitting suits is that they try to cover a distance and every increase in drag can be noticed.

This is my favorite tight-suit-pic :D
http://www.gue.com/images/research/w...ea_0400_04.jpg

Peter

eelpout · December 23rd, 2005, 03:57 AM

This are some instructions for ordering a DUI TLS 350 suit ffrom the people from Extreme Exposure. I am sure they use their suits for cave diving

.
I hope it helps,
Jim

After measuring suits for 4 years, I have some recommendations.

TLS 350 (zero buoyancy characteristics -- unlike neoprene)
Cave Cut (the customer is required to sign a release for Special Slim Cut Designs, as it may reduce range of motion if not measured correctly)
Main dry suit color: Navy or Black (Fraser dives with baby blue fins... to each his own)

1) Standard Latex Neck Seal
2) Warm Neck Collar
3) CLx 450 Overlay fashion with TOUGH DUCK. Tough duck is more abrasive resistant than the standard nylon overlay; if you're diving a harness style system, I would strongly recommend the tough duck. With the standard nylon overlay, the nylon between the harness webbing and the sealing zipper can rub a hole through the Nylon. This is not to say that tough duck will prevent a hole, I just have more confidence that the tough duct will prolong the life of your suit. I've been diving the tough duck for 4 yrs and a know a lot of divers that have the tough duck and don't have a problem at all.
Choice of colors: Black, Royal Blue, Red, Charcoal, Aqua, Purple, Maroon, and a new color, Midnight Blue, which I haven't seen. Red and Royal Blue show up best in photos.
4) "Old Style" classic zipper, front entry
5) Latex Seals
6) Telescoping Torso
7) Two Bellows Pockets (Right and Left) Having one flat pocket can limit what you carry in the pocket (spare Mask , 3 to 4 spools , wet notes, Micro-plus tool or a wrench, diver alert marker, extra double-enders and stage leases, o-ring pick with o-rings, etc... the list can go on depending the dive.) I personally regret having a flat pocket. You should ask yourself, how far you plan to go with your diving career? Rebreather, multiple stages, multiple scooters; you will need the extra cargo space to carry extra equipment. A dry suit is already a lot of money, I wouldn't limit myself over a pocket. We prefer the Halcyon pockets because they are built to withstand more rugged treatment. The seams are on the inside, the corners are rounded, they use a 1680 Cordura, and it has an inner pocket to carry your wet notes.
8) Ankle Straps
9) Molded "Turbo" Soles. The best way to ensure that DUI builds your suit properly, is to trace each foot, including dimensions. Draw a line down the length of the center of the foot and a line across the widest point of the foot illustrating the measurements. I also recommend that you list your shoe size as well.

The installation of the overboard discharge valve or P-Valve is very critical. I would recommend installing the P-Valve in a single layer of material just above the protective knee overlay. If you install the valve in two layers of material you run a greater chance the installation will leak later.

As long as you have a DUI representative measure you for the suit and they follow the directions step by step, it shouldn't be a problem.

If you have any question please feel free to contact me.

Douglas Mudry, General Manager

limeyx · December 23rd, 2005, 04:33 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff)

The difference between a cave-cut and a regular made-to-measure could actually be significant. The cave cut is simply as tight as possible. One reason for cavers to get the tight fitting suits is that they try to cover a distance and every increase in drag can be noticed.

This is my favorite tight-suit-pic :D
http://www.gue.com/images/research/w...ea_0400_04.jpg

Peter

Oh, I don't know. Check out the top right pic on *this* page

http://www.gavinscooters.com/index.html

*peter_steinhoff* · December 23rd, 2005, 05:50 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx)

Oh, I don't know. Check out the top right pic on *this* page

http://www.gavinscooters.com/index.html

Can't see the suit ;-) But honestly I would dress the same if I was in Florida in the summer... And George is actually a good guy so I don't fancy when people talk derogatory about him, or anybody else for that matter that are not here to fend for themselves.

Peter

limeyx · December 24th, 2005, 01:01 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff)

Can't see the suit ;-) But honestly I would dress the same if I was in Florida in the summer... And George is actually a good guy so I don't fancy when people talk derogatory about him, or anybody else for that matter that are not here to fend for themselves.

Peter

My comment wasnt meant to offend anyone, or attack anyone, just a bit of fun really.

And I never said anything about George not being a good guy -- in fact from the comments I've read from people that *have* met him, they generally seem to indicate the same.

(Let's hope we dont have to check our sense of humo[u]r at the door when discussing diving -- even if it is "DIR" diving

December 7th, 2005, 06:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
vid(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: london/surrey border, UK Posts: 353	what's a cave cut suit? can someone please explain what exactly the cave cut suit is and why it's used / advantages over a standard suit please? ta in advance vid

December 7th, 2005, 07:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rick(Offline) Jock Exley Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Falkirk/Stratford UK Posts: 730	Cave Cut is a fair bit snugger in the legs and a bit looser on the upper body! If you want your suit CC, then DUI insist you sign the waiver which omits them from the consequencies should the suit fit improperly! __________________ Forget Everything And Remember http://phreaticzone.thedeepstop.com/ http://www.dublinbaydiving.com/

December 8th, 2005, 12:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
Alastair(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 693	From what I heard they make the standard MTM suits to cope with the change in physical shape for a person over 10 years. That tends to mean that when you get it, it's not a good fit but you will grow into it as you put weight on! __________________ Helium is our friend - GI3

December 23rd, 2005, 03:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
eelpout(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: upper Midwest USA Posts: 11	This might help with the definition... This are some instructions for ordering a DUI TLS 350 suit ffrom the people from Extreme Exposure. I am sure they use their suits for cave diving . I hope it helps, Jim After measuring suits for 4 years, I have some recommendations. TLS 350 (zero buoyancy characteristics -- unlike neoprene) Cave Cut (the customer is required to sign a release for Special Slim Cut Designs, as it may reduce range of motion if not measured correctly) Main dry suit color: Navy or Black (Fraser dives with baby blue fins... to each his own) 1) Standard Latex Neck Seal 2) Warm Neck Collar 3) CLx 450 Overlay fashion with TOUGH DUCK. Tough duck is more abrasive resistant than the standard nylon overlay; if you're diving a harness style system, I would strongly recommend the tough duck. With the standard nylon overlay, the nylon between the harness webbing and the sealing zipper can rub a hole through the Nylon. This is not to say that tough duck will prevent a hole, I just have more confidence that the tough duct will prolong the life of your suit. I've been diving the tough duck for 4 yrs and a know a lot of divers that have the tough duck and don't have a problem at all. Choice of colors: Black, Royal Blue, Red, Charcoal, Aqua, Purple, Maroon, and a new color, Midnight Blue, which I haven't seen. Red and Royal Blue show up best in photos. 4) "Old Style" classic zipper, front entry 5) Latex Seals 6) Telescoping Torso 7) Two Bellows Pockets (Right and Left) Having one flat pocket can limit what you carry in the pocket (spare Mask , 3 to 4 spools , wet notes, Micro-plus tool or a wrench, diver alert marker, extra double-enders and stage leases, o-ring pick with o-rings, etc... the list can go on depending the dive.) I personally regret having a flat pocket. You should ask yourself, how far you plan to go with your diving career? Rebreather, multiple stages, multiple scooters; you will need the extra cargo space to carry extra equipment. A dry suit is already a lot of money, I wouldn't limit myself over a pocket. We prefer the Halcyon pockets because they are built to withstand more rugged treatment. The seams are on the inside, the corners are rounded, they use a 1680 Cordura, and it has an inner pocket to carry your wet notes. 8) Ankle Straps 9) Molded "Turbo" Soles. The best way to ensure that DUI builds your suit properly, is to trace each foot, including dimensions. Draw a line down the length of the center of the foot and a line across the widest point of the foot illustrating the measurements. I also recommend that you list your shoe size as well. The installation of the overboard discharge valve or P-Valve is very critical. I would recommend installing the P-Valve in a single layer of material just above the protective knee overlay. If you install the valve in two layers of material you run a greater chance the installation will leak later. As long as you have a DUI representative measure you for the suit and they follow the directions step by step, it shouldn't be a problem. If you have any question please feel free to contact me. Douglas Mudry, General Manager

December 23rd, 2005, 05:50 PM	#9 (permalink)
peter_steinhoff(Offline) Instructor candidate Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sweden & Florida Posts: 205	Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx) Oh, I don't know. Check out the top right pic on this page http://www.gavinscooters.com/index.html Can't see the suit ;-) But honestly I would dress the same if I was in Florida in the summer... And George is actually a good guy so I don't fancy when people talk derogatory about him, or anybody else for that matter that are not here to fend for themselves. Peter __________________ Peter Steinhoff GUE DIR-F, Tech1, Tech2, Cave1, Cave2, Cave3, RB80-1&2, DIR-F/Cave Instructor Candidate. NAUI Tec Instructor (Trimix, Technical DPV, Technical Wreck Penenetration etc) WKPP Support Diver, Halcyon Product Development Team, Gavinscooter Representative. Various IANTD, NSS-CDS, NACD, PADI & NAUI. ---------------------------------------------- http://dir-diver.com http://peter.steinhoff.se (swedish only)

December 7th, 2005, 07:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
Joe Hesketh(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 657	It's a cut of suit that DUI will do if specified when ordering a Signature Series (ie MTM) suit. Someone who actually has one will be able to give more precise details, though I think generally you get a closer fitting suit for the same set of measurements, though it's still fairly roomy in the shoulders to give flexibility on shut downs. The name I think stems from the suits the WKPP got cut years ago. The suits they were having made kept on coming back too baggy despite being given accurate measurements, so they tried tricking DUI by deliberately shaving lengths off the measurements they sent back to the factory. Today, they will make the closer fitting suit without you having to tweak the measurements, but they still make you sign a waiver as, in their eyes (as compared to the normal suits they make) they are making you a suit which is deliberatly too small for you. The advantages over a normal Signature Series would I guess be a percentage increment in the differences a Sig Series (made for 'you') would have over a 'standard' (ie off the peg) suit. That would be more streamlining, less gas migration, better fit, etc. The extent to which that is the case will depend on whether you're lucky enough to be roughly the same size and shape as a stock suit, though DUI do have some fairly offbeat ideas as to what a "normal" person looks like, plus they can vary from suit to suit. EDIT - damn, Rick snuck in while I was typing...

December 8th, 2005, 09:51 AM	#5 (permalink)
vid(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: london/surrey border, UK Posts: 353	thanks folks for the above it seems it's all a matter of how "tight" you want the suit, which I can understand theoretically, but surely the difference between a MTM and a cave cut MTM would be insignificant (unless we're talking "drainpipe" legs)? Quote: (Originally Posted by Alastair) it's not a good fit but you will grow into it as you put weight on! oops, what happens if you've already put the weight on???? vid

December 23rd, 2005, 02:52 AM	#6 (permalink)
peter_steinhoff(Offline) Instructor candidate Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sweden & Florida Posts: 205	The difference between a cave-cut and a regular made-to-measure could actually be significant. The cave cut is simply as tight as possible. One reason for cavers to get the tight fitting suits is that they try to cover a distance and every increase in drag can be noticed. This is my favorite tight-suit-pic :D http://www.gue.com/images/research/w...ea_0400_04.jpg Peter

December 23rd, 2005, 04:33 AM	#8 (permalink)
limeyx(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 707	Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff) The difference between a cave-cut and a regular made-to-measure could actually be significant. The cave cut is simply as tight as possible. One reason for cavers to get the tight fitting suits is that they try to cover a distance and every increase in drag can be noticed. This is my favorite tight-suit-pic :D http://www.gue.com/images/research/w...ea_0400_04.jpg Peter Oh, I don't know. Check out the top right pic on this page http://www.gavinscooters.com/index.html

December 24th, 2005, 01:01 AM	#10 (permalink)
limeyx(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 707	Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff) Can't see the suit ;-) But honestly I would dress the same if I was in Florida in the summer... And George is actually a good guy so I don't fancy when people talk derogatory about him, or anybody else for that matter that are not here to fend for themselves. Peter My comment wasnt meant to offend anyone, or attack anyone, just a bit of fun really. And I never said anything about George not being a good guy -- in fact from the comments I've read from people that have met him, they generally seem to indicate the same. (Let's hope we dont have to check our sense of humo[u]r at the door when discussing diving -- even if it is "DIR" diving