The argument for three

ellisn · December 1st, 2005, 10:22 AM

Can you please explain the argument for the three man team in DIR. I understand that having two people help you out of a situation is better than one person but I imagine, as in TDI training, Tech 1 teaches the situation where there could be a scenario where two people are in trouble and you have to say goodbye to one of them. This basicly implies that while one diver is in trouble, the second helping one, number three is on their own. Just interested to know the DIR stance on the three man team logic.

Cheers

Neil

*JohnKendall* · December 1st, 2005, 11:31 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by ellisn)

Can you please explain the argument for the three man team in DIR. I understand that having two people help you out of a situation is better than one person but I imagine, as in TDI training, Tech 1 teaches the situation where there could be a scenario where two people are in trouble and you have to say goodbye to one of them. This basicly implies that while one diver is in trouble, the second helping one, number three is on their own. Just interested to know the DIR stance on the three man team logic.

I'm not sure where you've got this from.

In a 3 man team, if 1 person has an issue, then 1 person assists and the 3rd person is now in charge of referencing. So in a cave that is Referencing where the line is, and which way is out. In open water it means they are now in charge of navigation.

You then re-order the team to box in the person with the problem. That way if they have another issue, there are 2 options for where they can go.

In some situations, a 2 man team is better i.e the recent WKPP Chips Hole Exploration - This is a very small silty siphon cave, so the 3rd man would just cause more silting.

Don't know if that's answered your question or not.

J

ellisn · December 1st, 2005, 01:10 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall)

I'm not sure where you've got this from.

Got what from, the 3 man team? I thought that was general DIR to dive as a trio. The weakness as I see it is that if in the unlikely event that two people experiance a problem you can only help one of them and the other is on their own. Is'nt this a scenario given in tech 1 training, I thought it was, sure I read it somewhere?

Cheers

Neil

***EBT*** · December 1st, 2005, 01:15 PM

Its a team.. no ones on their own. You're thinking in the "buddy" concept neil.

3 of you pile into a bar, one gets snagged by local moose.... both of you can help him out. See, team work!

(or you could use my approach, stand back and mock)

*Clare Gledhill* · December 1st, 2005, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Is'nt this a scenario given in tech 1 training, I thought it was, sure I read it somewhere?

No - thanks Neill - but I'll own up to that one - we were talking yesterday about a scenario in Tech 1 where I went after Fraser who had lost his mask and was ascending, leaving Al who was tieing off the reel. AK ensured that Al then (of course) went OOA. Andy K carpeted me for leaving Al to help Frase - saying I should have left him - it was too late to help and my place was with Al.

This had quite an impact on me - the need to make a decision to leave a buddy in need of help was alien to me and a nasty (but necessary) lesson to learn. I think I grew up a bit that day.

None of this affects a three man team though - you could quite easily be in the position of having to choose whether to help a buddy and both of you die - or save yourself. Yuck - none of us want to think about these things - but it is quite important that we do 'think' - whatever the outcome of our deliberation is - as the dives get deeper.

*Rich Walker* · December 1st, 2005, 01:33 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by CHG)

No - thanks Neill - but I'll own up to that one - we were talking yesterday about a scenario in Tech 1 where I went after Fraser who had lost his mask and was ascending, leaving Al who was tieing off the reel. AK ensured that Al then (of course) went OOA. Andy K carpeted me for leaving Al to help Frase - saying I should have left him - it was too late to help and my place was with Al.

This had quite an impact on me - the need to make a decision to leave a buddy in need of help was alien to me and a nasty (but necessary) lesson to learn. I think I grew up a bit that day.

None of this affects a three man team though - you could quite easily be in the position of having to choose whether to help a buddy and both of you die - or save yourself. Yuck - none of us want to think about these things - but it is quite important that we do as the dives get deeper.

My suspicion is that whoever you left would have been the one to be out of gas - this was not a lesson about "knowing when to leave your buddy", but preventing the team from fragmenting in the first place. You were buggered whatever you did

There are very few double failure scenarios that couldn't be fixed with a three man team, and I'm having trouble thinking of any to be honest. The benefits of the third brain, third gas supply, third set of equipment is a very comforting and useful degree of redundancy.

Rich

***techadmin*** · December 1st, 2005, 01:51 PM

A Team environment is a great thing IMHO.

Self Sufficiency is all well and good for very shallow dives but when you start doing the deep stuff self sufficiency is not going to happen and three people gives you a good level of redundancy.

When I was doing 100m plus stuff in the Caymans this summer, I was glad to be in a team environment.

When I do deeper dives I want to be diving exactly the same way I do for shallower dives, so if god forbid anything went wrong your procedures and muscle memory kick in instinctively.

The way I woudl look at it would be that if I had a failure that I needed help then some one else would be watching over us as it would be very easy to loose your place in the water column and drop another 20 metres and that could be catastrophic for both of you, if those third set of eyes were not watching and helping if needed.

Sure you could argue you might get 2 catastrophic failures but what are the odds of that happening realistically!

PBrown · December 1st, 2005, 01:51 PM

I suspect that the inclination to dive in a three comes from DIR's cave diving roots, where it seems to be far more common, but it isn't something which DIR mandates.

Diving as a three does require more communication and team awareness (particularly in open water), especially when there is an issue or problem, but it shouldn't lead to the need to decide which buddy to leave behind (barring training scenario's!).

cheers,
Paul

ellisn · December 1st, 2005, 01:57 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by CHG)

you could quite easily be in the position of having to choose whether to help a buddy and both of you die - or save yourself.

Good point, if two people get in trouble I guess a third would be handy, and as John says having someone keep an eye on surroundings would allow the helping diver focus more on the diver in trouble.

Thanks folks

Neil

ellisn · December 1st, 2005, 02:03 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by techadmin)

A Team environment is a great thing IMHO.

Self Sufficiency is all well and good for very shallow dives but when you start doing the deep stuff self sufficiency is not going to happen and three people gives you a good level of redundancy.

When I was doing 100m plus stuff in the Caymans this summer, I was glad to be in a team environment.

Agree, gave up any thoughts of solo diving after a heli ride to the chamber, not that the winching into the helicopter wasn't a bit of a buzz. The team aspect is one of the driving factors making me want to do DIR-F, I see the benefit of being watched over while performing tasks - just in case.

Neil

December 1st, 2005, 10:22 AM	#1 (permalink)
ellisn(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Swindon Posts: 89	The argument for three Can you please explain the argument for the three man team in DIR. I understand that having two people help you out of a situation is better than one person but I imagine, as in TDI training, Tech 1 teaches the situation where there could be a scenario where two people are in trouble and you have to say goodbye to one of them. This basicly implies that while one diver is in trouble, the second helping one, number three is on their own. Just interested to know the DIR stance on the three man team logic. Cheers Neil

December 1st, 2005, 01:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
Clare Gledhill(Offline) GUE Instructor Site Admin Pacman Champion! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,540	Quote: Is'nt this a scenario given in tech 1 training, I thought it was, sure I read it somewhere? No - thanks Neill - but I'll own up to that one - we were talking yesterday about a scenario in Tech 1 where I went after Fraser who had lost his mask and was ascending, leaving Al who was tieing off the reel. AK ensured that Al then (of course) went OOA. Andy K carpeted me for leaving Al to help Frase - saying I should have left him - it was too late to help and my place was with Al. This had quite an impact on me - the need to make a decision to leave a buddy in need of help was alien to me and a nasty (but necessary) lesson to learn. I think I grew up a bit that day. None of this affects a three man team though - you could quite easily be in the position of having to choose whether to help a buddy and both of you die - or save yourself. Yuck - none of us want to think about these things - but it is quite important that we do 'think' - whatever the outcome of our deliberation is - as the dives get deeper. __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk Last edited by Clare Gledhill; December 1st, 2005 at 01:31 PM.

December 1st, 2005, 01:51 PM	#8 (permalink)
PBrown(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 198	I suspect that the inclination to dive in a three comes from DIR's cave diving roots, where it seems to be far more common, but it isn't something which DIR mandates. Diving as a three does require more communication and team awareness (particularly in open water), especially when there is an issue or problem, but it shouldn't lead to the need to decide which buddy to leave behind (barring training scenario's!). cheers, Paul Last edited by PBrown; December 1st, 2005 at 01:53 PM. Reason: spelling

December 1st, 2005, 11:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,097	Quote: (Originally Posted by ellisn) Can you please explain the argument for the three man team in DIR. I understand that having two people help you out of a situation is better than one person but I imagine, as in TDI training, Tech 1 teaches the situation where there could be a scenario where two people are in trouble and you have to say goodbye to one of them. This basicly implies that while one diver is in trouble, the second helping one, number three is on their own. Just interested to know the DIR stance on the three man team logic. I'm not sure where you've got this from. In a 3 man team, if 1 person has an issue, then 1 person assists and the 3rd person is now in charge of referencing. So in a cave that is Referencing where the line is, and which way is out. In open water it means they are now in charge of navigation. You then re-order the team to box in the person with the problem. That way if they have another issue, there are 2 options for where they can go. In some situations, a 2 man team is better i.e the recent WKPP Chips Hole Exploration - This is a very small silty siphon cave, so the 3rd man would just cause more silting. Don't know if that's answered your question or not. J

December 1st, 2005, 01:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
ellisn(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Swindon Posts: 89	Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall) I'm not sure where you've got this from. Got what from, the 3 man team? I thought that was general DIR to dive as a trio. The weakness as I see it is that if in the unlikely event that two people experiance a problem you can only help one of them and the other is on their own. Is'nt this a scenario given in tech 1 training, I thought it was, sure I read it somewhere? Cheers Neil

December 1st, 2005, 01:15 PM	#4 (permalink)
*EBT*(Offline) Just another crouton... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Brighton Posts: 413	Its a team.. no ones on their own. You're thinking in the "buddy" concept neil. 3 of you pile into a bar, one gets snagged by local moose.... both of you can help him out. See, team work! (or you could use my approach, stand back and mock)

December 1st, 2005, 01:33 PM	#6 (permalink)
Rich Walker (Online) GUE Instructor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sheffield Posts: 300	Quote: (Originally Posted by CHG) No - thanks Neill - but I'll own up to that one - we were talking yesterday about a scenario in Tech 1 where I went after Fraser who had lost his mask and was ascending, leaving Al who was tieing off the reel. AK ensured that Al then (of course) went OOA. Andy K carpeted me for leaving Al to help Frase - saying I should have left him - it was too late to help and my place was with Al. This had quite an impact on me - the need to make a decision to leave a buddy in need of help was alien to me and a nasty (but necessary) lesson to learn. I think I grew up a bit that day. None of this affects a three man team though - you could quite easily be in the position of having to choose whether to help a buddy and both of you die - or save yourself. Yuck - none of us want to think about these things - but it is quite important that we do as the dives get deeper. My suspicion is that whoever you left would have been the one to be out of gas - this was not a lesson about "knowing when to leave your buddy", but preventing the team from fragmenting in the first place. You were buggered whatever you did There are very few double failure scenarios that couldn't be fixed with a three man team, and I'm having trouble thinking of any to be honest. The benefits of the third brain, third gas supply, third set of equipment is a very comforting and useful degree of redundancy. Rich

December 1st, 2005, 01:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
*techadmin*(Offline) Administrator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Data Center Posts: 214	A Team environment is a great thing IMHO. Self Sufficiency is all well and good for very shallow dives but when you start doing the deep stuff self sufficiency is not going to happen and three people gives you a good level of redundancy. When I was doing 100m plus stuff in the Caymans this summer, I was glad to be in a team environment. When I do deeper dives I want to be diving exactly the same way I do for shallower dives, so if god forbid anything went wrong your procedures and muscle memory kick in instinctively. The way I woudl look at it would be that if I had a failure that I needed help then some one else would be watching over us as it would be very easy to loose your place in the water column and drop another 20 metres and that could be catastrophic for both of you, if those third set of eyes were not watching and helping if needed. Sure you could argue you might get 2 catastrophic failures but what are the odds of that happening realistically!

December 1st, 2005, 01:57 PM	#9 (permalink)
ellisn(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Swindon Posts: 89	Quote: (Originally Posted by CHG) you could quite easily be in the position of having to choose whether to help a buddy and both of you die - or save yourself. Good point, if two people get in trouble I guess a third would be handy, and as John says having someone keep an eye on surroundings would allow the helping diver focus more on the diver in trouble. Thanks folks Neil

December 1st, 2005, 02:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
ellisn(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Swindon Posts: 89	Quote: (Originally Posted by techadmin) A Team environment is a great thing IMHO. Self Sufficiency is all well and good for very shallow dives but when you start doing the deep stuff self sufficiency is not going to happen and three people gives you a good level of redundancy. When I was doing 100m plus stuff in the Caymans this summer, I was glad to be in a team environment. Agree, gave up any thoughts of solo diving after a heli ride to the chamber, not that the winching into the helicopter wasn't a bit of a buzz. The team aspect is one of the driving factors making me want to do DIR-F, I see the benefit of being watched over while performing tasks - just in case. Neil