When should the computer go to guage mode?

Little Pete · November 28th, 2005, 07:25 PM

Hey peeps, this is a follow on from something I mentioned before and have been thinking about since.

When in your DIR career should the computer go into guage mode (or you switch to dive timer)?

I ask this as a 'recreational' diver moving towards full DIR. If I'd done Tech1 I would likely have a very good grounding in deco theory and be able to DOTF/ratio etc etc. In that case there would be no advantage in leaving the computer in normal mode as I'm not using it for deco.

If I took off my Aladin Prime now and replaced it with a Dive timer (or guage mode comp etc) would I gain anything?
I have no real grounding in deco theory and it is not taught on the fundies course. As it stands the computer no deco limits give me a good idea of what my status is with regards to deco. I'm taking less notice of it as time goes on and I get the feel for what I can do on average dives (shallow single 12 dives are limited in approaching deco limits). Still I find it a very useful tool as there is no "minimum deco on the fly" that I'm really aware of or have been shown.

I think that was my only concern with the fundies course and book is that there is the point made about getting away from computer dependence but not giving anything to really replace it with. There are no GUE OW tables (or similar) provided or recommended so you are left to go with the RDP/BSAC 88s or stick with your computer.

Anyway, I'd be interested in thoughts from people here and it might be a point to raise with GUE HQ.

Take care

***Bob Cooper*** · November 28th, 2005, 07:33 PM

Pete

First, don't think of DIR as being only for tech dives, it's not. You can be a DIR recreational diver too! We tend to go down the "tech" route in UK as our diving here means we are generally in deeper water (because that's where most of the good wrecks are).

If the english channel was 10m deep, 25deg all year round and 30m vis, I'm sure we'd all be diving DIR in our wetsuits and single tanks.

Anyway, about the computer question.....

My advice would be to keep the computer on your wrist until you are comfortable with getting rid of it. Dive a few profiles with the deco you are happy with and see what your computer thinks of it! Then, when you do Tech 1 you will get a better understanding of what deco is all about.

Don't just throw the computer out because it's "not DIR". It can give you some useful info on the road to learning about deco.

Hope that helps.

Bob

Little Pete · November 28th, 2005, 07:45 PM

Thanks bob, that is largely what I'm up to. I was mainly posting in case there were other folks at a similar stage to me who might be confused.

I'm strongly in favour for adopting DIR principles to diving from the beginning as I feel they address some things that might be shortfalls later on.

*Clare Gledhill* · November 28th, 2005, 09:25 PM

I know exactly what you mean Pete about that grey area during and after fundies where you know what 'not' to do deco-wise, but don't have the knowledge to do it differently.

I hated using a dive computer from my first dive with one - long before I even heard of DIR. More than anything, I hated the fact that I didn't understand it.

I've used the analogy several times since that I would hate to have to use a calculator without any knowledge of maths. If you understand the basics you can spot if somethings not quite right....

345 x12 = 690

?

Nope - missed the first digit off the multiplier - whoops - do it again....

See what I mean - it's OK using computers/calculators but not if we switch our brains off when we do so. We need sufficient knowledge to understand what they are doing - to check that all is well.

I had two instructors on my fundies course (AK and RichW) and got quite cross with both of them when it emerged that the course does not cover anything beyond air tables and minimum deco (for the purposes of gas calcs only).

Being told to 'dive the tables you learned to dive with' is not much help when you (like me) learned from PADI that 18 metres a minute is an acceptable ascent rate and stops are not 'required' until approaching no deco limits.

But they were right to say this. DIRF is not about teaching everything in one go - nor can it be.

So when?

Play with deco (in your head - not in the water) look at and learn the no stop times and see what patterns emerge. Shove figures into Decoplanner - and see the same (don't forget we're still talking minimum deco recreational diving here). As you do this more, you'll get more confident about where the 'arbitrary' limits are - I say 'arbitrary' because that's all thry are - we have no idea what suits us individually - but then your computer has no idea what suits you either.

For me, my computer got put into gauge mode permanently on Tech 1 - but only after I bent it twice

Fraser and I headed off to the Red Sea a few days later and did a load of those multi level repetative reefy type dives that everyone does there (plus a couple of deeper ones).

Could we have used computers - sure - of course we could. In the same way that I COULD take a calculator to the shop to work out my change when I buy a newspaper - but as both are equally simple - it's nice not having to.

ellisn · November 28th, 2005, 10:19 PM

Bet you still use a calculator though

*Clare Gledhill* · November 28th, 2005, 10:21 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by ellisn)

Bet you still use a calculator though

Ask Frase :D

Gavin · November 28th, 2005, 10:41 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by CHG)

Fraser and I headed off to the Red Sea a few days later and did a load of those multi level repetative reefy type dives that everyone does there (plus a couple of deeper ones).

Could we have used computers - sure - of course we could. In the same way that I COULD take a calculator to the shop to work out my change when I buy a newspaper - but as both are equally simple - it's nice not having to.

OK so how do you do multi-level diving DIR stylee then.

I'm off to the Sharm on Thrusday and failing all other options I'll be diving using the Vyper.

Gavin

Divingniknaks · November 28th, 2005, 11:03 PM

Given the DIR-F answer we all got.

You would use your Wheel, wouldn't you ?

fraser · November 29th, 2005, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Quote: (Originally Posted by ellisn)
Bet you still use a calculator though

Ask Frase :D

Yes I can confirm that Clare has a hatred of anything more complex than an abacus and more electronic than a toaster (how she posts on here is beyond me). She certainly does all her maths (and mine

) in her head.

Scary....

Fraser :D

scubajay · November 29th, 2005, 12:48 AM

but then you have people like me to whom maths is the anti christ, and sitting for hours and doing maths would ruin the whole point of diving. I can do it if I have to, but maths is something I steer away from unless forced to do it. Once force comes in, the fun stops.

My computer is a valuable tool at the moment, and unless I am shown a way to work without it that I can understand, then I am sticking with it. my EANx course was hell on earth for me......I struggled like hell with the maths, and got a bollocking from the instructor (not a pay to pass PADI type) for not doing the homework, which I left to the last minute becasue of the sums involved.

Do I use a calc to work out change? Yep. Do I count numbers on my fingers, or write stuff down? Yep. Will I ditch the computer after doing DIR-F? Probably not. Will I need to be convinced? Yep.

November 28th, 2005, 07:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
Little Pete(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 509	When should the computer go to guage mode? Hey peeps, this is a follow on from something I mentioned before and have been thinking about since. When in your DIR career should the computer go into guage mode (or you switch to dive timer)? I ask this as a 'recreational' diver moving towards full DIR. If I'd done Tech1 I would likely have a very good grounding in deco theory and be able to DOTF/ratio etc etc. In that case there would be no advantage in leaving the computer in normal mode as I'm not using it for deco. If I took off my Aladin Prime now and replaced it with a Dive timer (or guage mode comp etc) would I gain anything? I have no real grounding in deco theory and it is not taught on the fundies course. As it stands the computer no deco limits give me a good idea of what my status is with regards to deco. I'm taking less notice of it as time goes on and I get the feel for what I can do on average dives (shallow single 12 dives are limited in approaching deco limits). Still I find it a very useful tool as there is no "minimum deco on the fly" that I'm really aware of or have been shown. I think that was my only concern with the fundies course and book is that there is the point made about getting away from computer dependence but not giving anything to really replace it with. There are no GUE OW tables (or similar) provided or recommended so you are left to go with the RDP/BSAC 88s or stick with your computer. Anyway, I'd be interested in thoughts from people here and it might be a point to raise with GUE HQ. Take care

November 28th, 2005, 09:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
Clare Gledhill (Online) GUE Instructor Site Admin Pacman Champion! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,540	I know exactly what you mean Pete about that grey area during and after fundies where you know what 'not' to do deco-wise, but don't have the knowledge to do it differently. I hated using a dive computer from my first dive with one - long before I even heard of DIR. More than anything, I hated the fact that I didn't understand it. I've used the analogy several times since that I would hate to have to use a calculator without any knowledge of maths. If you understand the basics you can spot if somethings not quite right.... 345 x12 = 690 ? Nope - missed the first digit off the multiplier - whoops - do it again.... See what I mean - it's OK using computers/calculators but not if we switch our brains off when we do so. We need sufficient knowledge to understand what they are doing - to check that all is well. I had two instructors on my fundies course (AK and RichW) and got quite cross with both of them when it emerged that the course does not cover anything beyond air tables and minimum deco (for the purposes of gas calcs only). Being told to 'dive the tables you learned to dive with' is not much help when you (like me) learned from PADI that 18 metres a minute is an acceptable ascent rate and stops are not 'required' until approaching no deco limits. But they were right to say this. DIRF is not about teaching everything in one go - nor can it be. So when? Play with deco (in your head - not in the water) look at and learn the no stop times and see what patterns emerge. Shove figures into Decoplanner - and see the same (don't forget we're still talking minimum deco recreational diving here). As you do this more, you'll get more confident about where the 'arbitrary' limits are - I say 'arbitrary' because that's all thry are - we have no idea what suits us individually - but then your computer has no idea what suits you either. For me, my computer got put into gauge mode permanently on Tech 1 - but only after I bent it twice Fraser and I headed off to the Red Sea a few days later and did a load of those multi level repetative reefy type dives that everyone does there (plus a couple of deeper ones). Could we have used computers - sure - of course we could. In the same way that I COULD take a calculator to the shop to work out my change when I buy a newspaper - but as both are equally simple - it's nice not having to. __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk

November 28th, 2005, 10:21 PM	#6 (permalink)
Clare Gledhill (Online) GUE Instructor Site Admin Pacman Champion! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,540	Quote: (Originally Posted by ellisn) Bet you still use a calculator though Ask Frase :D __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk

November 28th, 2005, 11:03 PM	#8 (permalink)
Divingniknaks(Offline) Resident purveyor of shiney kit.... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midlands UK Posts: 1,038	Given the DIR-F answer we all got. You would use your Wheel, wouldn't you ? __________________ Phill ----------------------------- Salvo Lights, DirZone Gear , Frog Wings Dive ? http://www.divingniknaks.com

November 29th, 2005, 12:21 AM	#9 (permalink)
fraser(Offline) "I'm only late on your timescale" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 463	Quote: Quote: (Originally Posted by ellisn) Bet you still use a calculator though Ask Frase :D Yes I can confirm that Clare has a hatred of anything more complex than an abacus and more electronic than a toaster (how she posts on here is beyond me). She certainly does all her maths (and mine ) in her head. Scary.... Fraser :D __________________ Damn it feels good to be a gangsta

November 28th, 2005, 07:33 PM	#2 (permalink)
*Bob Cooper*(Offline) Moderator - "Don't stop me now!" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: South East London, UK Posts: 680	Pete First, don't think of DIR as being only for tech dives, it's not. You can be a DIR recreational diver too! We tend to go down the "tech" route in UK as our diving here means we are generally in deeper water (because that's where most of the good wrecks are). If the english channel was 10m deep, 25deg all year round and 30m vis, I'm sure we'd all be diving DIR in our wetsuits and single tanks. Anyway, about the computer question..... My advice would be to keep the computer on your wrist until you are comfortable with getting rid of it. Dive a few profiles with the deco you are happy with and see what your computer thinks of it! Then, when you do Tech 1 you will get a better understanding of what deco is all about. Don't just throw the computer out because it's "not DIR". It can give you some useful info on the road to learning about deco. Hope that helps. Bob

November 28th, 2005, 07:45 PM	#3 (permalink)
Little Pete(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 509	Thanks bob, that is largely what I'm up to. I was mainly posting in case there were other folks at a similar stage to me who might be confused. I'm strongly in favour for adopting DIR principles to diving from the beginning as I feel they address some things that might be shortfalls later on.

November 28th, 2005, 10:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
ellisn(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Swindon Posts: 89	Bet you still use a calculator though

November 28th, 2005, 10:41 PM	#7 (permalink)
Gavin(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Coventry Posts: 57	Quote: (Originally Posted by CHG) Fraser and I headed off to the Red Sea a few days later and did a load of those multi level repetative reefy type dives that everyone does there (plus a couple of deeper ones). Could we have used computers - sure - of course we could. In the same way that I COULD take a calculator to the shop to work out my change when I buy a newspaper - but as both are equally simple - it's nice not having to. OK so how do you do multi-level diving DIR stylee then. I'm off to the Sharm on Thrusday and failing all other options I'll be diving using the Vyper. Gavin

November 29th, 2005, 12:48 AM	#10 (permalink)
scubajay(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Great Totham, Essex Posts: 59	but then you have people like me to whom maths is the anti christ, and sitting for hours and doing maths would ruin the whole point of diving. I can do it if I have to, but maths is something I steer away from unless forced to do it. Once force comes in, the fun stops. My computer is a valuable tool at the moment, and unless I am shown a way to work without it that I can understand, then I am sticking with it. my EANx course was hell on earth for me......I struggled like hell with the maths, and got a bollocking from the instructor (not a pay to pass PADI type) for not doing the homework, which I left to the last minute becasue of the sums involved. Do I use a calc to work out change? Yep. Do I count numbers on my fingers, or write stuff down? Yep. Will I ditch the computer after doing DIR-F? Probably not. Will I need to be convinced? Yep. __________________ We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by. 20,000mm Under the Sea