Read This ..........

acqua · May 21st, 2006, 12:12 PM

http://www.inspired-training.com/DIR...0its%20not.htm

acqua · May 21st, 2006, 12:15 PM

I will finish to read it in the afternoon after the dive in Mnemba .

anyway let me know your opinion on that .....( I guess already

)

Martin Burnard · May 21st, 2006, 12:41 PM

Whist I dive DIR there are areas that I feel are weak with respect to Ocean/Sea diving. Coulur if wings and drysuits being the main area.

Ask a skipper whats easiest to see, black or yellow?
Ask the rescue team on a helicopter the same question.

The detach the drysuit hose for inflation of a Halcyon DSMB is something I avoid, I inflate at armes length to reduce entanglement (obviously not using a Halcyon Delay).

Drysuits? Well for my diving in the UK they make a whole lot of sense (mine by the way is Silver and Blue).

Gas mixes, no comment, but team uniformity is a strength.

So in summary

The man has more experience than me.
Some of his points I agree with.
Some I do not.

The style of delivary is entertaining and therfore will be read, but it does not say anything new.

mstroeck · May 21st, 2006, 01:23 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Martin Burnard)

Whist I dive DIR there are areas that I feel are weak with respect to Ocean/Sea diving. Coulur if wings and drysuits being the main area.

Ask a skipper whats easiest to see, black or yellow?
Ask the rescue team on a helicopter the same question.

That's not an argument against the DIR approach at all. A pink drysuit and lilac wing would be just as DIR as the black ones, nobody dictates the colours of your gear.

Quote:

The man has more experience than me.

The guy also looks like a junkyard when he's diving, get's bent on 300m dives and then goes on to sue the hapless makers of the decompression software he (mis)used -- among other things. I personally have come to the conclusion that he's an idiot and I wouldn't jump into a puddle with him. YMMV.

graham_hk · May 21st, 2006, 01:32 PM

One word (its a goodie) floccinaucinihilipilification

The guy is a complete moron and can't even put together a reasoned argument. I have have it on good authority that he is a complete ****** from folks that have met him!

If it looks like shit, smell like shit probably is ... what does that say about him??

Graham

Martin Burnard · May 21st, 2006, 01:39 PM

Indeed, there is no colour stipulation (hence my Silver/blue), the way its written is entertaining (as are childrens books, meticulous works of fact are often harder reading).

So it appears so far that we generally agree its entertaining though pretty worthless ramblings!

*Hassan Adly* · May 21st, 2006, 02:16 PM

Here goes...

Elyatt's article, rather than being an objective, honest analysis of what is right and wrong about DIR, is unfortunately simply a rant, based on hatred and bias, mixed with a large serving of false and misleading statements.

The first six paragraphs of the article are dedicated to telling Ellyat's opinion of how nasty George Irvine is/was. Whatever justification he may have in his personal opinions of George Irvine's character is completely irrelevant in the context of examining the merits of DIR. Besides blasting Irvine for various Internet discussion posts accredited to him, Elyatt casts doubt on whether George actually did the decompression profiles he and JJ claim to have done.

On to Elyatt's criticisms of what he believes is DIR. This can be split into two areas: Trashing of a few actual DIR procedures, and vociferously trashing DIR for a list of procedures he falsely attributes to DIR

Actual DIR procedures he doesn't like:
Non-bungeed wings
Single-bladder wings
Preference for "membrane" (I think he means tri-lam) drysuits

Falsely attributed procedures:
DIR only allows black gear (black drysuits, fins, wings)
All regulators should be "finger tight"
DIR divers use only American regulator brands
DIR divers all use high-performance regs on deco bottles (and even argon bottles)

I think you will agree that his beefs with DIR prcedures are superficial at best, but mostly misguided. But nowhere is Elyatt as lost as he is when it comes to deep diving and decompression.

Ellyatt goes on to criticise decompression precedures as practiced by DIR divers, where more than anything he demonstrates his unwillingness to understand the basic tenets which make those procedures possible. The arguments he puts forth about the standard gasses and their lack of suitability for decompression diving ignore completely the theories behind reduced gradient bubble theory. This is not something George Irvine made up, it is proven knowledge, backed up by sound theory and years of research. the VPM and RGBM models aren't "smoke and mirrors". Elyatt insists in other articles that the fact he was bent on many occasions while using RGBM on sub-200 meter dives proves its invalidity. I think that getting bent multiple times while attempting extreme deep dives proves ones own stupidity more than anything else.

Proponents of DIR diving do not belong to the school of frustrated middle-aged men who instead of buying sports cars insist on doing sub-200 meter dives. Elyatt claims to be able to produce safe decompression profiles from depths ranging up to 300 meters, and even markets snake oil, er, I mean software, which he claims will enable anyone to create a safe profile from extreme depth. At the same time he accuses everyone, from the main proponents of DIR to the various bubble model researchers, of being in it for the money. How ironic.

I could go on de-constructing Elyatt's article and other articles of the same vein written by him. But the fact is that as long as Elyatt will dictate his opinion based on personal bias and bad emotions, rather than be open to a truthful, honest discussion about the subject at hand, he will only be an additional source of bias and bad emotion, rather than a valuable source of information.

I prefer to take my advice from someone who never actually lay paralysed inside a chamber.

Devon Rob · May 21st, 2006, 03:33 PM

I have great respect for the courage of anyone who has dived to 300m+ on SCUBA.......but

I think his motives for such a bounce dive are financial and probably personal too. I don´t see any benefit to diver safety or commercial diving in such "record attempts" as spectacular as they are.
He could do the same dive again tomorrow and not survive.
As to his comments about DIR I treat such stuff as negative advertising along the lines of...Buy Persil because Daz is crap!
As to his personal attacks on other members of the Diving community, my Grandmother would say..."no class at all"

Devon Rob

Little Pete · May 21st, 2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Buy Persil because Daz is crap

Ease up fella, Daz is quite a nice chap and one of the potential members of my normal sized dive team (unlike all you giants).

Devon Rob · May 21st, 2006, 07:04 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Little Pete)

Ease up fella, Daz is quite a nice chap and one of the potential members of my normal sized dive team (unlike all you giants).

did Daz shrink in the wash?

Sorry...Buy Daz cos Persil is crap!
(if anyone out there is called Mr P.Ersil then I´m running out of options)

May 21st, 2006, 12:12 PM	#1 (permalink)
acqua(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Maldives Posts: 17	Read This .......... http://www.inspired-training.com/DIR...0its%20not.htm

May 21st, 2006, 12:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
acqua(Offline) New Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Maldives Posts: 17	bha I will finish to read it in the afternoon after the dive in Mnemba . anyway let me know your opinion on that .....( I guess already )

May 21st, 2006, 12:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
Martin Burnard (Online) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 580	Whist I dive DIR there are areas that I feel are weak with respect to Ocean/Sea diving. Coulur if wings and drysuits being the main area. Ask a skipper whats easiest to see, black or yellow? Ask the rescue team on a helicopter the same question. The detach the drysuit hose for inflation of a Halcyon DSMB is something I avoid, I inflate at armes length to reduce entanglement (obviously not using a Halcyon Delay). Drysuits? Well for my diving in the UK they make a whole lot of sense (mine by the way is Silver and Blue). Gas mixes, no comment, but team uniformity is a strength. So in summary The man has more experience than me. Some of his points I agree with. Some I do not. The style of delivary is entertaining and therfore will be read, but it does not say anything new. __________________ I once enjoyed a sado-masachistic frenzy of total tintintabulation leading to a state of metampsychosis... or did I make that up? www.bananafrogcars.co.uk

May 21st, 2006, 01:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
mstroeck(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 156	Quote: (Originally Posted by Martin Burnard) Whist I dive DIR there are areas that I feel are weak with respect to Ocean/Sea diving. Coulur if wings and drysuits being the main area. Ask a skipper whats easiest to see, black or yellow? Ask the rescue team on a helicopter the same question. That's not an argument against the DIR approach at all. A pink drysuit and lilac wing would be just as DIR as the black ones, nobody dictates the colours of your gear. Quote: The man has more experience than me. The guy also looks like a junkyard when he's diving, get's bent on 300m dives and then goes on to sue the hapless makers of the decompression software he (mis)used -- among other things. I personally have come to the conclusion that he's an idiot and I wouldn't jump into a puddle with him. YMMV. Last edited by mstroeck; May 21st, 2006 at 01:37 PM. Reason: typos

May 21st, 2006, 01:39 PM	#6 (permalink)
Martin Burnard (Online) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 580	Indeed, there is no colour stipulation (hence my Silver/blue), the way its written is entertaining (as are childrens books, meticulous works of fact are often harder reading). So it appears so far that we generally agree its entertaining though pretty worthless ramblings! __________________ I once enjoyed a sado-masachistic frenzy of total tintintabulation leading to a state of metampsychosis... or did I make that up? www.bananafrogcars.co.uk

May 21st, 2006, 01:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
graham_hk(Offline) Pinoy ako pinoy Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: here, there and everywhere Posts: 779	One word (its a goodie) floccinaucinihilipilification The guy is a complete moron and can't even put together a reasoned argument. I have have it on good authority that he is a complete ****** from folks that have met him! If it looks like shit, smell like shit probably is ... what does that say about him?? Graham

May 21st, 2006, 02:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
Hassan Adly (Online) GUE Instructor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Red Sea Posts: 286	Here goes... Elyatt's article, rather than being an objective, honest analysis of what is right and wrong about DIR, is unfortunately simply a rant, based on hatred and bias, mixed with a large serving of false and misleading statements. The first six paragraphs of the article are dedicated to telling Ellyat's opinion of how nasty George Irvine is/was. Whatever justification he may have in his personal opinions of George Irvine's character is completely irrelevant in the context of examining the merits of DIR. Besides blasting Irvine for various Internet discussion posts accredited to him, Elyatt casts doubt on whether George actually did the decompression profiles he and JJ claim to have done. On to Elyatt's criticisms of what he believes is DIR. This can be split into two areas: Trashing of a few actual DIR procedures, and vociferously trashing DIR for a list of procedures he falsely attributes to DIR Actual DIR procedures he doesn't like: Non-bungeed wings Single-bladder wings Preference for "membrane" (I think he means tri-lam) drysuits Falsely attributed procedures: DIR only allows black gear (black drysuits, fins, wings) All regulators should be "finger tight" DIR divers use only American regulator brands DIR divers all use high-performance regs on deco bottles (and even argon bottles) I think you will agree that his beefs with DIR prcedures are superficial at best, but mostly misguided. But nowhere is Elyatt as lost as he is when it comes to deep diving and decompression. Ellyatt goes on to criticise decompression precedures as practiced by DIR divers, where more than anything he demonstrates his unwillingness to understand the basic tenets which make those procedures possible. The arguments he puts forth about the standard gasses and their lack of suitability for decompression diving ignore completely the theories behind reduced gradient bubble theory. This is not something George Irvine made up, it is proven knowledge, backed up by sound theory and years of research. the VPM and RGBM models aren't "smoke and mirrors". Elyatt insists in other articles that the fact he was bent on many occasions while using RGBM on sub-200 meter dives proves its invalidity. I think that getting bent multiple times while attempting extreme deep dives proves ones own stupidity more than anything else. Proponents of DIR diving do not belong to the school of frustrated middle-aged men who instead of buying sports cars insist on doing sub-200 meter dives. Elyatt claims to be able to produce safe decompression profiles from depths ranging up to 300 meters, and even markets snake oil, er, I mean software, which he claims will enable anyone to create a safe profile from extreme depth. At the same time he accuses everyone, from the main proponents of DIR to the various bubble model researchers, of being in it for the money. How ironic. I could go on de-constructing Elyatt's article and other articles of the same vein written by him. But the fact is that as long as Elyatt will dictate his opinion based on personal bias and bad emotions, rather than be open to a truthful, honest discussion about the subject at hand, he will only be an additional source of bias and bad emotion, rather than a valuable source of information. I prefer to take my advice from someone who never actually lay paralysed inside a chamber. __________________ Hassan Adly Red Sea Discovery "Today I will finally see the sea again, which will smell of salt, wind, sand - and the cold of winter. Finally I will not only travel on it but dive in it, again I will become water, a bird - and I will remember the feeling of gliding above the abyss" Elena Sundukova, tragically lost at sea, January 2007 Last edited by Hassan Adly; May 21st, 2006 at 02:50 PM.

May 21st, 2006, 03:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
Devon Rob(Offline) Can´t remember-member Breakout Champion! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lyme Bay.Devon.UK formerly Hamburg, Ger. Posts: 316	I have great respect for the courage of anyone who has dived to 300m+ on SCUBA.......but I think his motives for such a bounce dive are financial and probably personal too. I don´t see any benefit to diver safety or commercial diving in such "record attempts" as spectacular as they are. He could do the same dive again tomorrow and not survive. As to his comments about DIR I treat such stuff as negative advertising along the lines of...Buy Persil because Daz is crap! As to his personal attacks on other members of the Diving community, my Grandmother would say..."no class at all" Devon Rob __________________ this mail was checked for viruses,worms & bad breath

May 21st, 2006, 04:10 PM	#9 (permalink)
Little Pete(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 509	Quote: Buy Persil because Daz is crap Ease up fella, Daz is quite a nice chap and one of the potential members of my normal sized dive team (unlike all you giants).

May 21st, 2006, 07:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
Devon Rob(Offline) Can´t remember-member Breakout Champion! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lyme Bay.Devon.UK formerly Hamburg, Ger. Posts: 316	Quote: (Originally Posted by Little Pete) Ease up fella, Daz is quite a nice chap and one of the potential members of my normal sized dive team (unlike all you giants). did Daz shrink in the wash? Sorry...Buy Daz cos Persil is crap! (if anyone out there is called Mr P.Ersil then I´m running out of options) __________________ this mail was checked for viruses,worms & bad breath