The Diving Path of DIR - some questions

PFM · March 8th, 2006, 12:24 AM

Following Mal Bridgemans report on his recent entry level trimix:

Entry Level Trimix with Frank Bruce - Part 3

Whinger & Gledders discussed the pertinent points of advanced diving and GUE. I didnt wish to hijack the thread so I thought I would post some of my queries here.

I am (in almost every sense) a novice in terms of diving, with only a Padi OW cert to my name. My stumble across and subsequent research of DIR (GUE) has resparked my love of diving and I am now in the novel position of being able to start down this route from scratch.

As such I am building up my kit correctly (mucho thanks to the Knackers emporium), before I embark on the route to Fundies (I''ll get to the point in a sec...) My questions...

For the (shall we say) beginner, what is the GUE, DIR path to advanced forms of diving? In Mal's thread Whinger asked about the validity of other agencies advanced certs, and Gledders suggested that this is currently under resolution.

In light of this, my query best sits as, "how should I efficiently progress my diving? I'm sure Padi, and many other agencies will chuck course after cert card my way in return of wads of cash. This is not the way I wish to go, and as such I have avoided other organisations.

I do wish to progress my diving in the DIR ethos and not waste muscle memory on drills/procedures/equipment that are counter to the DIR skills and goals that I wish to achieve (the journey being more important than the arrival).

Will GUE (UK) provide appropriate training at appropriate points in my progression that will further extend my enjoyment of the sport, or are there gaps that need to be breached by other agency involvement- eg entry level trimix etc?

Please forgive the naivety, I'm only new here and as a humble Padowan learner I am prone to bouts of questioning.

Thanks

Mac

Rick · March 8th, 2006, 12:41 AM

I, like you started off as PADI OW!

Go do DIR(F) immediately!

If your not sold "entirely" on the system, you've lost nothing and gained lots already!

Choose your own destiny and dive safe! :D

sasdasdaf · March 8th, 2006, 12:43 AM

The short answer is yes, but sometimes the stars need to be aligned. GUE's courses have evolved over time and in my humble opinion, they now provide a clear and logical progression that should cover most of your training needs. The first step is DIR-F, and then on to tech or cave, as you desire. The addition of triox makes the jump to Tech 1 more manageable, if that is the route you seek. Cave 1 is a little more than cavern and intro to cave, but again in manageable chunks.

Complications can sometimes arise in scheduling classes. It is not always easy to find buddies who are at the same skill level as you and who want to take the same classes. Also, scheduling can be a problem (e.g. there are only 2 instructors who teach Cave 2 in Florida).

There are some limitations to GUE's curriculum. For example, there are no wreck penetration courses. Cave diving can help prepare you for wreck diving, but there are lots of additional points to consider that cave diving just doesn't deal with.

PFM · March 8th, 2006, 01:00 AM

Thanks Guy's for some good answers.

I am certainly sold on DIR, and see it as a logical team based solution and a discipline that I want dive.

However I have had a few strange looks (not to mention advice) when specifying kit requirements at some of the local dive shops.

DIR F is firmly in the frame (just gotta work on getting my bouyancy & trim honed with my newly gathered kit).

I can appreciate the problems re: buddies, scheduling and accept that its sometimes the price to pay to persue the route taken.

Jonathan · March 8th, 2006, 01:00 AM

Hi Mac,

My advice would be chat to Rich Walker.

I'm sure he'll give you all the pointers you need, will be able to give you advice and has experience of many agencies [and chances are he'll be your instructor on fundies too]

And personally, as Rick says, do it sooner rather than later. I could've saved myself a fortune!

Cheers

Jonathan

Edit:

Quote: (Originally Posted by PFM)

However I have had a few strange looks (not to mention advice) when specifying kit requirements at some of the local dive shops.

Yup been there too! Best off getting advice from here and if it isn't stocked in your LDS get it online

sasdasdaf · March 8th, 2006, 01:13 AM

One more thing. GUE training is not cheap. On top of course fees, there might be additional costs if you travel or bring an instructor to you. It's often cheaper and easier to take classes from other agencies or instructors. For example, there are plenty of Full Cave divers out there trained by other agencies who are all excellent and high competent divers. Which route you choose is up to you, but just wanted to point it out.

Personally, I have been more than happy with all the GUE training I've had and to me, it has been worth every penny.

LCF · March 8th, 2006, 03:16 AM

I can't tell you anything about trimix . . . but I can tell you something about PADI. I was PADI OW, and have done their AOW and several specialties, Rescue, and DIR-F.

Navigation and Rescue included material that is not covered in DIR-F, and that I think were very useful. Otherwise, the specialties weren't worth very much. A deep specialty that doesn't address any "rock bottom" type concept, and doesn't address gas planning, and doesn't discuss deep stops, to me is not much of a deep diving class. Peak Performance Buoyancy was a complete joke compared with Fundies. Boat diving was silly. So, at least for my money, navigation and rescue are useful classes, especially if you are motivated to do some training and Fundies is not immediately available.

ppo2_diver · March 8th, 2006, 04:07 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF)

A deep specialty that doesn't address any "rock bottom" type concept, and doesn't address gas planning, and doesn't discuss deep stops, to me is not much of a deep diving class. Peak Performance Buoyancy was a complete joke compared with Fundies. Boat diving was silly. So, at least for my money, navigation and rescue are useful classes, especially if you are motivated to do some training and Fundies is not immediately available.

Like with finding a tech class, it is the instructor who makes the class. When I teach the deep class, I do go over rock bottom, gas planning, SAC rates, and deep stops. When I teach the PPB I do go over different fin kicks, center of gravity drills, and proper equipment placement for good trim. That is if the student wants it. I've had students who just wanted to firm up their trim and weighting and not worried about fin kicks.

DJ

rooster · March 8th, 2006, 09:56 AM

Hi PFM

You should consider taking a course that will provide you with First Aid/ Rescue skills. As far as I am aware GUE do not currently offer anything that teaches this important area.

PADI RD is an excellent course for this, but will require you to get your AOW in advance. I am not aware of any PADI standard that would prevent you from doing AOW in a Hog Rig though. A PADI instructor should be able to confirm this.

Regards

Roy

lizardland · March 8th, 2006, 10:40 AM

The easiest way to progress your diving is to go and dive. No offence but your diving level sounds like what you should be doing is building experience rather than thinking about advanced diving. Knowledge comes from courses, skill and common sense comes from doing. If DIR is the way you want to go then do Fundamentals and apply that to your diving. Other than that I'd say do a nitrox coourse and maybe a rescue course when you think you are ready. BUt above all, just go and dive and let whatever progress happen naturally. You'll develop into a much safer diver rather than racking up cards that say you are.

This bit isn't directed at you but it does seem to be that doing more advanced diving (or at least turning relatively simple dives into "advanced" dives) has become very fashionable. From a lot of what gets talked on various forums whether or not the divers involved have adequate skill levels is debatable though they may be well trained on paper.

March 8th, 2006, 12:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
PFM(Offline) Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Humberside Posts: 105	The Diving Path of DIR - some questions Following Mal Bridgemans report on his recent entry level trimix: Entry Level Trimix with Frank Bruce - Part 3 Whinger & Gledders discussed the pertinent points of advanced diving and GUE. I didnt wish to hijack the thread so I thought I would post some of my queries here. I am (in almost every sense) a novice in terms of diving, with only a Padi OW cert to my name. My stumble across and subsequent research of DIR (GUE) has resparked my love of diving and I am now in the novel position of being able to start down this route from scratch. As such I am building up my kit correctly (mucho thanks to the Knackers emporium), before I embark on the route to Fundies (I''ll get to the point in a sec...) My questions... For the (shall we say) beginner, what is the GUE, DIR path to advanced forms of diving? In Mal's thread Whinger asked about the validity of other agencies advanced certs, and Gledders suggested that this is currently under resolution. In light of this, my query best sits as, "how should I efficiently progress my diving? I'm sure Padi, and many other agencies will chuck course after cert card my way in return of wads of cash. This is not the way I wish to go, and as such I have avoided other organisations. I do wish to progress my diving in the DIR ethos and not waste muscle memory on drills/procedures/equipment that are counter to the DIR skills and goals that I wish to achieve (the journey being more important than the arrival). Will GUE (UK) provide appropriate training at appropriate points in my progression that will further extend my enjoyment of the sport, or are there gaps that need to be breached by other agency involvement- eg entry level trimix etc? Please forgive the naivety, I'm only new here and as a humble Padowan learner I am prone to bouts of questioning. Thanks Mac __________________ On the long swim to Tech1... Last edited by PFM; March 8th, 2006 at 12:30 AM.

March 8th, 2006, 12:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
Rick(Offline) Jock Exley Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Falkirk/Stratford UK Posts: 730	I, like you started off as PADI OW! Go do DIR(F) immediately! If your not sold "entirely" on the system, you've lost nothing and gained lots already! Choose your own destiny and dive safe! :D __________________ Forget Everything And Remember http://phreaticzone.thedeepstop.com/ http://www.dublinbaydiving.com/

March 8th, 2006, 01:00 AM	#4 (permalink)
PFM(Offline) Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Humberside Posts: 105	Thanks Guy's for some good answers. I am certainly sold on DIR, and see it as a logical team based solution and a discipline that I want dive. However I have had a few strange looks (not to mention advice) when specifying kit requirements at some of the local dive shops. DIR F is firmly in the frame (just gotta work on getting my bouyancy & trim honed with my newly gathered kit). I can appreciate the problems re: buddies, scheduling and accept that its sometimes the price to pay to persue the route taken. __________________ On the long swim to Tech1...

March 8th, 2006, 01:00 AM	#5 (permalink)
Jonathan(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 215	Get it from the horses mouth... Hi Mac, My advice would be chat to Rich Walker. I'm sure he'll give you all the pointers you need, will be able to give you advice and has experience of many agencies [and chances are he'll be your instructor on fundies too] And personally, as Rick says, do it sooner rather than later. I could've saved myself a fortune! Cheers Jonathan Edit: Quote: (Originally Posted by PFM) However I have had a few strange looks (not to mention advice) when specifying kit requirements at some of the local dive shops. Yup been there too! Best off getting advice from here and if it isn't stocked in your LDS get it online Last edited by Jonathan; March 8th, 2006 at 01:04 AM. Reason: Added a bit

March 8th, 2006, 04:07 AM	#8 (permalink)
ppo2_diver(Offline) DIR Practitioner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Naperville, IL USA (Chicago Suburb) Posts: 103	Quote: (Originally Posted by LCF) A deep specialty that doesn't address any "rock bottom" type concept, and doesn't address gas planning, and doesn't discuss deep stops, to me is not much of a deep diving class. Peak Performance Buoyancy was a complete joke compared with Fundies. Boat diving was silly. So, at least for my money, navigation and rescue are useful classes, especially if you are motivated to do some training and Fundies is not immediately available. Like with finding a tech class, it is the instructor who makes the class. When I teach the deep class, I do go over rock bottom, gas planning, SAC rates, and deep stops. When I teach the PPB I do go over different fin kicks, center of gravity drills, and proper equipment placement for good trim. That is if the student wants it. I've had students who just wanted to firm up their trim and weighting and not worried about fin kicks. DJ __________________ Duane A. Johnson Precision Diving

March 8th, 2006, 12:43 AM	#3 (permalink)
sasdasdaf(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 375	The short answer is yes, but sometimes the stars need to be aligned. GUE's courses have evolved over time and in my humble opinion, they now provide a clear and logical progression that should cover most of your training needs. The first step is DIR-F, and then on to tech or cave, as you desire. The addition of triox makes the jump to Tech 1 more manageable, if that is the route you seek. Cave 1 is a little more than cavern and intro to cave, but again in manageable chunks. Complications can sometimes arise in scheduling classes. It is not always easy to find buddies who are at the same skill level as you and who want to take the same classes. Also, scheduling can be a problem (e.g. there are only 2 instructors who teach Cave 2 in Florida). There are some limitations to GUE's curriculum. For example, there are no wreck penetration courses. Cave diving can help prepare you for wreck diving, but there are lots of additional points to consider that cave diving just doesn't deal with.

March 8th, 2006, 01:13 AM	#6 (permalink)
sasdasdaf(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 375	One more thing. GUE training is not cheap. On top of course fees, there might be additional costs if you travel or bring an instructor to you. It's often cheaper and easier to take classes from other agencies or instructors. For example, there are plenty of Full Cave divers out there trained by other agencies who are all excellent and high competent divers. Which route you choose is up to you, but just wanted to point it out. Personally, I have been more than happy with all the GUE training I've had and to me, it has been worth every penny.

March 8th, 2006, 03:16 AM	#7 (permalink)
LCF(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 622	I can't tell you anything about trimix . . . but I can tell you something about PADI. I was PADI OW, and have done their AOW and several specialties, Rescue, and DIR-F. Navigation and Rescue included material that is not covered in DIR-F, and that I think were very useful. Otherwise, the specialties weren't worth very much. A deep specialty that doesn't address any "rock bottom" type concept, and doesn't address gas planning, and doesn't discuss deep stops, to me is not much of a deep diving class. Peak Performance Buoyancy was a complete joke compared with Fundies. Boat diving was silly. So, at least for my money, navigation and rescue are useful classes, especially if you are motivated to do some training and Fundies is not immediately available.

March 8th, 2006, 09:56 AM	#9 (permalink)
rooster(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 61	Hi PFM You should consider taking a course that will provide you with First Aid/ Rescue skills. As far as I am aware GUE do not currently offer anything that teaches this important area. PADI RD is an excellent course for this, but will require you to get your AOW in advance. I am not aware of any PADI standard that would prevent you from doing AOW in a Hog Rig though. A PADI instructor should be able to confirm this. Regards Roy

March 8th, 2006, 10:40 AM	#10 (permalink)
lizardland (Online) LCS Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Evidently Chickentown Posts: 591	The easiest way to progress your diving is to go and dive. No offence but your diving level sounds like what you should be doing is building experience rather than thinking about advanced diving. Knowledge comes from courses, skill and common sense comes from doing. If DIR is the way you want to go then do Fundamentals and apply that to your diving. Other than that I'd say do a nitrox coourse and maybe a rescue course when you think you are ready. BUt above all, just go and dive and let whatever progress happen naturally. You'll develop into a much safer diver rather than racking up cards that say you are. This bit isn't directed at you but it does seem to be that doing more advanced diving (or at least turning relatively simple dives into "advanced" dives) has become very fashionable. From a lot of what gets talked on various forums whether or not the divers involved have adequate skill levels is debatable though they may be well trained on paper.