Decompression pills

Rubis · June 6th, 2007, 10:28 AM

Hi ...

I was on a professional trip the last two days and took the opportunity to meet for dinner with some diving friends.

As always, we had heated discussions and one of my friends (that knows it all

), talked about some guys he is in contact with that are experimenting the use of a substance called Oxide Nitrate (?) that they take to reduce decompression obligation.
The substance would supposedly reduce the aggregation of bubbles, which supposedly causes DCS.

Has anyone heard of this, or is it another Urban Legend ?

Cheers

Cris

krautrob · June 6th, 2007, 11:23 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rubis)

Hi ...

As always, we had heated discussions and one of my friends (that knows it all

), talked about some guys he is in contact with that are experimenting the use of a substance called Oxide Nitrate (?) that they take to reduce decompression obligation.
The substance would supposedly reduce the aggregation of bubbles, which supposedly causes DCS.

Has anyone heard of this, or is it another Urban Legend ?
Cris

Oxide Nitrate is currently discussed in another thread: Nitrox: why?

LauNar · June 6th, 2007, 11:47 AM

I think they were talking about this study and nitric oxide: http://www.physoc.org/publications/pn/issuepdf/55/16-17.pdf

I recall seeing (Divernet?) news about that, the references to pills being probably a product of the journalistic process, ie. wild imagination and guesswork.

Dr. Alf Brubakk did a nice presentation about that and heat shock proteins etc in the Stockholm Tech Diving 2006 conference.

//LN

TobyFish · June 6th, 2007, 06:15 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by LauNar)

I think they were talking about this study and nitric oxide: http://www.physoc.org/publications/pn/issuepdf/55/16-17.pdf

I recall seeing (Divernet?) news about that, the references to pills being probably a product of the journalistic process, ie. wild imagination and guesswork.

Dr. Alf Brubakk did a nice presentation about that and heat shock proteins etc in the Stockholm Tech Diving 2006 conference.

//LN

Well the Physiological society has certainly lowered it's standards. That would not have been allowed on a poster in my day, let alone a full publication.

they say that exercise prevents bubbles, they say that nitric oxide (NO) prevents bubbles, then they say NO inhibitors don't block the effect of exercise and that this shows that NO is not necessarily the only mechanism of the exercise-effect. HORSE-SHYT!!! this shows that NO is almost certainly UNINVOLVED in the exercise-effect.

You can't take NO as a pill

As far as manipulating NO formation as an anti-bends measure, this is frought with problems. NO is an extremely labile messenger with a biological half-life of less than 10 seconds (from memory about 7) even in well perfused tissues. in poorly perfused tissues or re-perfused tissues, the half-life is likely even shorter. this means that NO normally only acts very close to it's site of production. They are only talking about endothelial NO production which can really only affect the endothelium, underlying vascular smooth muscle and (minimally) cells in the circulation - in short only the local vasculature. Although bubbles are measured in the blood, they are almost certainly formed in the parenchyma as well, and this formation will not be vulnerable to endothelial NO production

Exercise does not simply increase NO production in all endothelium. The effect will be greatest in skeletal muscle and there will likely even be a decrease in tissues such as the intestines. This is part of routing blood to the exercising muscles. so don't count on it being protective of all tissues.

as for "oxide nitrate"...

nitrate IS an oxide. oxide and nitrate are both negative ions, bundling the two together doesn't give you a chemical compound... it just doesn't make sense

Gene_Hobbs · June 6th, 2007, 08:20 PM

I have found a lot of the work interesting but still want to hold off on NO as it still seems to be another "flavor of the week".

As for a decompression pill... The US Navy did look at this some with hydrogen metabolizing flora in Pigs.

Decompression sickness risk reduced by native intestinal flora in pigs after H2 dives.
Kayar and Fahlman. Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine Journal 2001
RRR ID: 2373

MODULATION OF DECOMPRESSION SICKNESS RISK IN PIGS BY CAFFEINE ADMINISTRATION DURING H2 BIOCHEMICAL DECOMPRESSION.
Kayar et. al. 2001 (abstract)
RRR ID: 1027

DECOMPRESSION SICKNESS RISK CORRELATED WITH ACTIVITY OF H2-METABOLIZING MICROBES INJECTED IN PIGS PRIOR TO DIVES IN H2.
Fahlman et. al. 1999 (abstract)
RRR ID: 787

SparticleBrane · June 7th, 2007, 05:05 AM

I bring a rubber chicken with me. Always reduces deco by half.

jure · June 7th, 2007, 09:47 AM

Maybe it would be best if you wold read the original articles:
NOS inhibition increases bubble formation and reduces survival in sedentary but not exercised rats -- Wisløff et al. 546 (2): 577 -- The Journal of Physiology Online
Exercise and nitric oxide prevent bubble formation: a novel approach to the prevention of decompression sickness? -- Wisløff et al. 555 (3): 825 -- The Journal of Physiology Online

At least before buying the pills on internet

LauNar · June 7th, 2007, 09:52 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by jure)

At least before buying the pills on internet

Awwww... How do I get my money back now?

//LN

June 6th, 2007, 10:28 AM	#1 (permalink)
Rubis(Offline) cave deprived and Kissed Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Broadway, (lost in Central NC, USA far far way from Caves SIGH !!!) Posts: 275	Decompression pills Hi ... I was on a professional trip the last two days and took the opportunity to meet for dinner with some diving friends. As always, we had heated discussions and one of my friends (that knows it all ), talked about some guys he is in contact with that are experimenting the use of a substance called Oxide Nitrate (?) that they take to reduce decompression obligation. The substance would supposedly reduce the aggregation of bubbles, which supposedly causes DCS. Has anyone heard of this, or is it another Urban Legend ? Cheers Cris __________________ Petition against M26

June 6th, 2007, 06:15 PM	#4 (permalink)
TobyFish(Offline) Fine Upstanding Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Telford, UK Posts: 791	Quote: (Originally Posted by LauNar) I think they were talking about this study and nitric oxide: http://www.physoc.org/publications/pn/issuepdf/55/16-17.pdf I recall seeing (Divernet?) news about that, the references to pills being probably a product of the journalistic process, ie. wild imagination and guesswork. Dr. Alf Brubakk did a nice presentation about that and heat shock proteins etc in the Stockholm Tech Diving 2006 conference. //LN Well the Physiological society has certainly lowered it's standards. That would not have been allowed on a poster in my day, let alone a full publication. they say that exercise prevents bubbles, they say that nitric oxide (NO) prevents bubbles, then they say NO inhibitors don't block the effect of exercise and that this shows that NO is not necessarily the only mechanism of the exercise-effect. HORSE-SHYT!!! this shows that NO is almost certainly UNINVOLVED in the exercise-effect. You can't take NO as a pill As far as manipulating NO formation as an anti-bends measure, this is frought with problems. NO is an extremely labile messenger with a biological half-life of less than 10 seconds (from memory about 7) even in well perfused tissues. in poorly perfused tissues or re-perfused tissues, the half-life is likely even shorter. this means that NO normally only acts very close to it's site of production. They are only talking about endothelial NO production which can really only affect the endothelium, underlying vascular smooth muscle and (minimally) cells in the circulation - in short only the local vasculature. Although bubbles are measured in the blood, they are almost certainly formed in the parenchyma as well, and this formation will not be vulnerable to endothelial NO production Exercise does not simply increase NO production in all endothelium. The effect will be greatest in skeletal muscle and there will likely even be a decrease in tissues such as the intestines. This is part of routing blood to the exercising muscles. so don't count on it being protective of all tissues. as for "oxide nitrate"... nitrate IS an oxide. oxide and nitrate are both negative ions, bundling the two together doesn't give you a chemical compound... it just doesn't make sense __________________ Rude-boy Volvo "Gangsta Rollin' in me nine-six-oh"

June 6th, 2007, 08:20 PM	#5 (permalink)
Gene_Hobbs(Offline) WKPP Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Durham, NC, USA Posts: 57	flavor of the week? I have found a lot of the work interesting but still want to hold off on NO as it still seems to be another "flavor of the week". As for a decompression pill... The US Navy did look at this some with hydrogen metabolizing flora in Pigs. Decompression sickness risk reduced by native intestinal flora in pigs after H2 dives. Kayar and Fahlman. Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine Journal 2001 RRR ID: 2373 MODULATION OF DECOMPRESSION SICKNESS RISK IN PIGS BY CAFFEINE ADMINISTRATION DURING H2 BIOCHEMICAL DECOMPRESSION. Kayar et. al. 2001 (abstract) RRR ID: 1027 DECOMPRESSION SICKNESS RISK CORRELATED WITH ACTIVITY OF H2-METABOLIZING MICROBES INJECTED IN PIGS PRIOR TO DIVES IN H2. Fahlman et. al. 1999 (abstract) RRR ID: 787 __________________ http://rubicon-foundation.org/ Home of the Rubicon Research Repository. For help getting started with the Repository, please visit our FAQ page. PLEASE support our work. "Oxygen is addictive and deadly. Everyone who uses it will eventually die" --RW Hamilton, PhD 1991

June 7th, 2007, 05:05 AM	#6 (permalink)
SparticleBrane(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 102	I bring a rubber chicken with me. Always reduces deco by half. __________________ Life goes by pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in awhile, and do whatever you want all the time, you could miss it. -- Eric Cartman

June 7th, 2007, 09:47 AM	#7 (permalink)
jure(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Slovenija Posts: 10	Maybe it would be best if you wold read the original articles: NOS inhibition increases bubble formation and reduces survival in sedentary but not exercised rats -- Wisløff et al. 546 (2): 577 -- The Journal of Physiology Online Exercise and nitric oxide prevent bubble formation: a novel approach to the prevention of decompression sickness? -- Wisløff et al. 555 (3): 825 -- The Journal of Physiology Online At least before buying the pills on internet __________________ VPMOpen - opensource decompression program http://www.geocities.com/vpm.open/index.html

June 6th, 2007, 11:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
krautrob(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berlin/Munich Posts: 60	Quote: (Originally Posted by Rubis) Hi ... As always, we had heated discussions and one of my friends (that knows it all ), talked about some guys he is in contact with that are experimenting the use of a substance called Oxide Nitrate (?) that they take to reduce decompression obligation. The substance would supposedly reduce the aggregation of bubbles, which supposedly causes DCS. Has anyone heard of this, or is it another Urban Legend ? Cris Oxide Nitrate is currently discussed in another thread: Nitrox: why?

June 6th, 2007, 11:47 AM	#3 (permalink)
LauNar (Online) ... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 128	I think they were talking about this study and nitric oxide: http://www.physoc.org/publications/pn/issuepdf/55/16-17.pdf I recall seeing (Divernet?) news about that, the references to pills being probably a product of the journalistic process, ie. wild imagination and guesswork. Dr. Alf Brubakk did a nice presentation about that and heat shock proteins etc in the Stockholm Tech Diving 2006 conference. //LN

June 7th, 2007, 09:52 AM	#8 (permalink)
LauNar (Online) ... Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 128	Quote: (Originally Posted by jure) At least before buying the pills on internet Awwww... How do I get my money back now? //LN