5thD-X Ratio Deco "Mini" - Page 6

Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC · October 25th, 2006, 12:42 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JeffG)

WTF does that have to do with Ratio Deco? Ratio deco describes a depth/time curve. It has no connection with gear other than what gases are required. It doesn't matter if they are on the left, right or glued to your butt.

There is no magic behind Ratio Deco. It is easy to come up with a "ratio deco" for air deco dives (I think Scuba_Steve on SB called this TDIing it)

OK, I know what you mean.
Well, if you are using it to plan a dive, then hell, put the plan onto your wrist slate as a run time plan. One could go solo if that was his preference.

If you want to use it on the fly, then there are is a team that has to agree on procedure. Procedure more often than not translates to equipment setup. Especially when we are talking average 90 meters for say 45 minutes using up to 5 stages.
Again, unless you are solo, then there is no team to think about.

As far as Air Ratio deco goes. No worries, we have used it for air decompression dives as well. Although we have been using nitrox 50 as a deco gas. But I would strongly advise against attempting on the fly calculations while under the influense of narcosis. Better pre plan you dive. Since you won't THAT deep on air anyway, I suppose the gasses involved might not play such a significant role i.e. 55 meters or so.

Sorry if I sounded non inclusive as I certainly don't mean to. Remeber, I am a TDI guy here.

Ahmed

MonkSeal · October 25th, 2006, 02:24 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

I'm confused. Why do you need to use wetnotes to agree average depth and bottom time?

Someone writes it down and sends wet notes to the others to confirm or write their opinions.

Janos · October 25th, 2006, 02:30 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal)

Someone writes it down and sends wet notes to the others to confirm or write their opinions.

But could you not do this with hand signals? Much quicker I'd have thought?

Janos

MonkSeal · October 25th, 2006, 02:43 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

But could you not do this with hand signals? Much quicker I'd have thought?

Janos

Yes, and usually it's done that way but if someone does not agree then it can take more time to agree using hand signals. We keep hand signals to understandable level.

Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC · October 25th, 2006, 02:59 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

But could you not do this with hand signals? Much quicker I'd have thought?

Janos

When it is a team of newer divers (less than 50 deco dives), they will probably still be in the shallows on the 1:1 45m-60m range using a single nitrox 50 for deco. In this level of exploration, risk is minimal and passing a notebook around underwater could be pretty educational and add to everyones collective practice.

But deeper dives are commonly done with a more experianced team, and even better, a bunch of guys/gals who know each other. Therefore with a trusty team, it is better to have one person calling deco to make things simpler and less time consuming. Questions that may arise, are better dealt with at more shallow depths where there are less pressing issues.

With an experianced team a lot of glitches, that the less experianced take more dramatically, iron themselves out without much fuss.

Ahmed

Janos · October 26th, 2006, 12:08 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC)

When it is a team of newer divers (less than 50 deco dives), they will probably still be in the shallows on the 1:1 45m-60m range using a single nitrox 50 for deco. In this level of exploration, risk is minimal and passing a notebook around underwater could be pretty educational and add to everyones collective practice.

But deeper dives are commonly done with a more experianced team, and even better, a bunch of guys/gals who know each other. Therefore with a trusty team, it is better to have one person calling deco to make things simpler and less time consuming. Questions that may arise, are better dealt with at more shallow depths where there are less pressing issues.

Thanks Ahmed.

I'm a bit confused here. Surely you either trust someone or you don't? [1] If someone is Tech 1 qualified then why wouldn't you trust them to run deco?

I don't like the idea of passing round the notebook at depth. It just seems to be unnecessary faff. Once the dive is thumbed I think it's safer for all concerned to be heading up ASAP, as per your second scenario. I don't understand why the technique differs depending on the depth and experience of the divers.

Janos

[1] - When diving for fun. If you are teaching then obviously you might be with someone who's skills aren't up to scratch.

MonkSeal · October 26th, 2006, 12:23 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

I don't like the idea of passing round the notebook at depth. It just seems to be unnecessary faff. Once the dive is thumbed I think it's safer for all concerned to be heading up ASAP, as per your second scenario.

When dive is thumbed we start to ascend. However, at that moment the amount of deco is not known yet. When we arrive to first deep stop then we know how will deco look like. We don't need to communicate that immediately because we know how to perform deep stops (it's always the same for given range of exposures). During first few deep stops we agree upon depth and BT and total decompression time is a consequence of that.

Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC · October 26th, 2006, 03:05 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

Thanks Ahmed.

I'm a bit confused here. Surely you either trust someone or you don't? [1] If someone is Tech 1 qualified then why wouldn't you trust them to run deco?

I don't like the idea of passing round the notebook at depth. It just seems to be unnecessary faff. Once the dive is thumbed I think it's safer for all concerned to be heading up ASAP, as per your second scenario. I don't understand why the technique differs depending on the depth and experience of the divers.

Janos

[1] - When diving for fun. If you are teaching then obviously you might be with someone who's skills aren't up to scratch.

No no. I would trust a Tech 1 certified person. But at the level I mentioned it really dose not matter if you spend an extra few minutes at depth. Basically at 45 minutes another 5 minutes would be just another 5 minutes deco.
So down to around 60 meters, things are really simple.

Once the dives get deeper, there is much more gear, switches and whatever else might or might not hit the fan. Basically much more serious time-wise.
At 90 meters the extra 5 minutes would be a hell of a lot of extra gas, plus me-thinks another 15 minutes of deco at least.

If using the "minimum gas is backgas" scheme, then acsent starts when you breath down your last bottom stage. Meaning no horsing around as your back gas is the bare minimumish. This is one example.
There are other details that make deeper diving a bit more complicated than shallow as well. But that is better tackeled once you and your team get there.

I didn't mean to have a "don't trust anyone" approach. Actually, the best way for me to say it is that Ratio deco is really a very practice based skill. So you learn one part, go do a few dives with your buddies, learn some more dive some more and so on.
That brings us back to where we started which is trusting your buddy to make the right choices. After that is done, then you move forward to go diving, then you learn stuff like decompression, trimix, ratio deco and so on. Get my drift?

Ahmed

rjack · October 26th, 2006, 04:06 PM

We pass around the wetnotes at the 21m stop. You're there for a couple minutes anyway, might as well get everyone on the same "page".

I have a "blank" profile from 21m to the surface written in fat marker so I just fill in the times next to the depths in pencil. Erase the pencil and reuse the page next time. These are tech1 dives, one deco bottle, 50%

Seems to work for us deco newbies.

JeffG · October 26th, 2006, 09:21 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal)

When dive is thumbed we start to ascend. However, at that moment the amount of deco is not known yet.

Awesome dive planning.

Call me crazy, but I (and the team) know how much deco and where before we descend. If we overstay our plan, then we have to adjust the deco.

October 25th, 2006, 12:42 PM	#51 (permalink)
Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: hurghada Posts: 1,100	Quote: (Originally Posted by JeffG) WTF does that have to do with Ratio Deco? Ratio deco describes a depth/time curve. It has no connection with gear other than what gases are required. It doesn't matter if they are on the left, right or glued to your butt. There is no magic behind Ratio Deco. It is easy to come up with a "ratio deco" for air deco dives (I think Scuba_Steve on SB called this TDIing it) OK, I know what you mean. Well, if you are using it to plan a dive, then hell, put the plan onto your wrist slate as a run time plan. One could go solo if that was his preference. If you want to use it on the fly, then there are is a team that has to agree on procedure. Procedure more often than not translates to equipment setup. Especially when we are talking average 90 meters for say 45 minutes using up to 5 stages. Again, unless you are solo, then there is no team to think about. As far as Air Ratio deco goes. No worries, we have used it for air decompression dives as well. Although we have been using nitrox 50 as a deco gas. But I would strongly advise against attempting on the fly calculations while under the influense of narcosis. Better pre plan you dive. Since you won't THAT deep on air anyway, I suppose the gasses involved might not play such a significant role i.e. 55 meters or so. Sorry if I sounded non inclusive as I certainly don't mean to. Remeber, I am a TDI guy here. Ahmed __________________ Life and Death, although stemming from one another, seem to conflict as stages of change. Ahmed Adly, www.deepvoyage.com

October 25th, 2006, 02:30 PM	#53 (permalink)
Janos(Offline) "Two Sheds" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 412	Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal) Someone writes it down and sends wet notes to the others to confirm or write their opinions. But could you not do this with hand signals? Much quicker I'd have thought? Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves DO of Hellfins

October 25th, 2006, 02:59 PM	#55 (permalink)
Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: hurghada Posts: 1,100	Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) But could you not do this with hand signals? Much quicker I'd have thought? Janos When it is a team of newer divers (less than 50 deco dives), they will probably still be in the shallows on the 1:1 45m-60m range using a single nitrox 50 for deco. In this level of exploration, risk is minimal and passing a notebook around underwater could be pretty educational and add to everyones collective practice. But deeper dives are commonly done with a more experianced team, and even better, a bunch of guys/gals who know each other. Therefore with a trusty team, it is better to have one person calling deco to make things simpler and less time consuming. Questions that may arise, are better dealt with at more shallow depths where there are less pressing issues. With an experianced team a lot of glitches, that the less experianced take more dramatically, iron themselves out without much fuss. Ahmed __________________ Life and Death, although stemming from one another, seem to conflict as stages of change. Ahmed Adly, www.deepvoyage.com

October 26th, 2006, 12:08 PM	#56 (permalink)
Janos(Offline) "Two Sheds" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 412	Quote: (Originally Posted by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC) When it is a team of newer divers (less than 50 deco dives), they will probably still be in the shallows on the 1:1 45m-60m range using a single nitrox 50 for deco. In this level of exploration, risk is minimal and passing a notebook around underwater could be pretty educational and add to everyones collective practice. But deeper dives are commonly done with a more experianced team, and even better, a bunch of guys/gals who know each other. Therefore with a trusty team, it is better to have one person calling deco to make things simpler and less time consuming. Questions that may arise, are better dealt with at more shallow depths where there are less pressing issues. Thanks Ahmed. I'm a bit confused here. Surely you either trust someone or you don't? [1] If someone is Tech 1 qualified then why wouldn't you trust them to run deco? I don't like the idea of passing round the notebook at depth. It just seems to be unnecessary faff. Once the dive is thumbed I think it's safer for all concerned to be heading up ASAP, as per your second scenario. I don't understand why the technique differs depending on the depth and experience of the divers. Janos [1] - When diving for fun. If you are teaching then obviously you might be with someone who's skills aren't up to scratch. __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves DO of Hellfins

October 26th, 2006, 03:05 PM	#58 (permalink)
Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: hurghada Posts: 1,100	Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) Thanks Ahmed. I'm a bit confused here. Surely you either trust someone or you don't? [1] If someone is Tech 1 qualified then why wouldn't you trust them to run deco? I don't like the idea of passing round the notebook at depth. It just seems to be unnecessary faff. Once the dive is thumbed I think it's safer for all concerned to be heading up ASAP, as per your second scenario. I don't understand why the technique differs depending on the depth and experience of the divers. Janos [1] - When diving for fun. If you are teaching then obviously you might be with someone who's skills aren't up to scratch. No no. I would trust a Tech 1 certified person. But at the level I mentioned it really dose not matter if you spend an extra few minutes at depth. Basically at 45 minutes another 5 minutes would be just another 5 minutes deco. So down to around 60 meters, things are really simple. Once the dives get deeper, there is much more gear, switches and whatever else might or might not hit the fan. Basically much more serious time-wise. At 90 meters the extra 5 minutes would be a hell of a lot of extra gas, plus me-thinks another 15 minutes of deco at least. If using the "minimum gas is backgas" scheme, then acsent starts when you breath down your last bottom stage. Meaning no horsing around as your back gas is the bare minimumish. This is one example. There are other details that make deeper diving a bit more complicated than shallow as well. But that is better tackeled once you and your team get there. I didn't mean to have a "don't trust anyone" approach. Actually, the best way for me to say it is that Ratio deco is really a very practice based skill. So you learn one part, go do a few dives with your buddies, learn some more dive some more and so on. That brings us back to where we started which is trusting your buddy to make the right choices. After that is done, then you move forward to go diving, then you learn stuff like decompression, trimix, ratio deco and so on. Get my drift? Ahmed __________________ Life and Death, although stemming from one another, seem to conflict as stages of change. Ahmed Adly, www.deepvoyage.com Last edited by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC; October 26th, 2006 at 03:19 PM..

October 25th, 2006, 02:24 PM	#52 (permalink)
MonkSeal(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 575	Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) I'm confused. Why do you need to use wetnotes to agree average depth and bottom time? Someone writes it down and sends wet notes to the others to confirm or write their opinions.

October 25th, 2006, 02:43 PM	#54 (permalink)
MonkSeal(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 575	Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) But could you not do this with hand signals? Much quicker I'd have thought? Janos Yes, and usually it's done that way but if someone does not agree then it can take more time to agree using hand signals. We keep hand signals to understandable level.

October 26th, 2006, 12:23 PM	#57 (permalink)
MonkSeal(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 575	Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) I don't like the idea of passing round the notebook at depth. It just seems to be unnecessary faff. Once the dive is thumbed I think it's safer for all concerned to be heading up ASAP, as per your second scenario. When dive is thumbed we start to ascend. However, at that moment the amount of deco is not known yet. When we arrive to first deep stop then we know how will deco look like. We don't need to communicate that immediately because we know how to perform deep stops (it's always the same for given range of exposures). During first few deep stops we agree upon depth and BT and total decompression time is a consequence of that.

October 26th, 2006, 04:06 PM	#59 (permalink)
rjack(Offline) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,011	We pass around the wetnotes at the 21m stop. You're there for a couple minutes anyway, might as well get everyone on the same "page". I have a "blank" profile from 21m to the surface written in fat marker so I just fill in the times next to the depths in pencil. Erase the pencil and reuse the page next time. These are tech1 dives, one deco bottle, 50% Seems to work for us deco newbies.

October 26th, 2006, 09:21 PM	#60 (permalink)
JeffG(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 69	Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal) When dive is thumbed we start to ascend. However, at that moment the amount of deco is not known yet. Awesome dive planning. Call me crazy, but I (and the team) know how much deco and where before we descend. If we overstay our plan, then we have to adjust the deco.