5thD-X Ratio Deco "Mini" - Page 5

limeyx · October 23rd, 2006, 10:41 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal)

I just want to stress more fact that Hassan gave. Those who went trough Tech-1 and Tech-2 can say how much (little) time was dedicated to ratio deco and decompression in general comparing to other great tools and techniques. It's not that it doesn't work without GUE training but it can't be performed without skills, it doesn't make sense if not combined with rock-bottom and it's definitely easier to perform within team.

yeah, for our T1, we had one evening of lectures on deco (out of a 5 day class). About 3/4 of that was on the history and evolution of deco models etc.

the res was split between looking at patterns in deco with Decoplanner, and comparing runtimes/deco times, and how you get penalized with He.

then we covered 2 techniques for calculating deco (ratio and by tweaking tables). Then the next day everyone ran the profiles the students calculated and dove (using ratio deco). I haven't yet used Decoplanner since (not to say I never will, just not needed to so far)

limeyx · October 23rd, 2006, 10:42 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by DanPartelly)

Sorry ,mate. I reckon you where american.

No problem, 10 years of living in los angeles makes it pretty hard to tell over the Internet, or in person sometimes. I've had people from college saying they never knew I was american before -- oops.

Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC · October 24th, 2006, 10:59 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack)

Ahmed what type of gear gets in the way of ratio deco?

Gases I can understand but gear?

Richard

A major factor is that ratio deco on deeper dives really needs a greater variety of gasses. More stages means more technique needed to handle them. Regular gear is really not designed to carry that much kit under water. You actually need less to carry more. That is one reason why DIR is a suitable approach that ratio deco fits in well with.

Now the problem that jumps up here is that you rarely find a person doing a TDI class that thinks along the DIR way. But once they see the reason behind the madness (we don't use lots of d-rings for example), they normally come around

A small example: the divers note book becomes an inseperable peice of kit as well. Much better than the wrist slate when used properly. It really needs to be stowed in your right thigh pocket to have easy access for you and your team mates. In many cases, a TDI diver, will not have really seen need for thigh pockets as it is likely that they are taught to stow gear on the stage tanks.

I have made a decompression workshop for experianced trimix divers that gets all that clear. It dose take 4 to 5 days though. But after which the diver has a real clear understanding and a chance to do some nice deep practice dives

My previous students have been coming for it and they love it! Although they hate me for the computers I had sold them on their previous visits!!!

Sorry for the long post.

Ahmed

rjack · October 24th, 2006, 04:56 PM

Thanks. Not being trained any other way (like using a wrist slate), its hard for me to imagine the conflicts between some other gear and ratio deco.

Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC · October 24th, 2006, 05:51 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack)

Thanks. Not being trained any other way (like using a wrist slate), its hard for me to imagine the conflicts between some other gear and ratio deco.

Example: when stages are on the right and left it becomes hard to reach your note book, and that is one hell of an important peice of gear that both you and your team mates need to have quick access to.
Note book should be in right THIGH pocket. The thigh pocket is another peice of gear that is not standard with the non DIR crowd and we almost always have to get people sorted out with either pockets or x-shorts.

Also, since it is kind of team based in it's application, some people need to change the way their gear is configured, just to fit in with a team. This is important, especially during training I think.

But again, that's just me. I guess after people take the workshop, they pretty much use the knowledge any way they want to and since I don't consider my students a bunch of wandering idiots who are lost without me, I trust they will make the right choices.

JeffG · October 25th, 2006, 09:16 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC)

Example: when stages are on the right and left it becomes hard to reach your note book, and that is one hell of an important peice of gear that both you and your team mates need to have quick access to.

WTF does that have to do with Ratio Deco? Ratio deco describes a depth/time curve. It has no connection with gear other than what gases are required. It doesn't matter if they are on the left, right or glued to your butt.

There is no magic behind Ratio Deco. It is easy to come up with a "ratio deco" for air deco dives (I think Scuba_Steve on SB called this TDIing it)

MonkSeal · October 25th, 2006, 09:29 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JeffG)

It has no connection with gear other than what gases are required.

Procedure of performing it has connection with gear e.g. we use wet notes when agreeing upon average depth and bottom time which define decompression. IMO it's hard to separate tool itself from applying procedure because the efficiency (performance) is the most important part of the story. Without it, it's just a theory.

Quote: (Originally Posted by JeffG)

There is no magic behind Ratio Deco.

I agree with that - it's just result of analyzing specific part of whole decompression picture.

Janos · October 25th, 2006, 10:38 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by JeffG)

There is no magic behind Ratio Deco. It is easy to come up with a "ratio deco" for air deco dives (I think Scuba_Steve on SB called this TDIing it)

Yes. Someone asked me to come up with a set of rules for air / 50% that mimic 20/80 GFs. Ish.

Deco on the Pie (DOTP) - YD Dive Forums & Scuba Community

Janos

Janos · October 25th, 2006, 10:48 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal)

Procedure of performing it has connection with gear e.g. we use wet notes when agreeing upon average depth and bottom time which define decompression. IMO it's hard to separate tool itself from applying procedure because the efficiency (performance) is the most important part of the story. Without it, it's just a theory.

I'm confused. Why do you need to use wetnotes to agree average depth and bottom time?

**Alastair** · October 25th, 2006, 10:53 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

I'm confused. Why do you need to use wetnotes to agree average depth and bottom time?

I must admit I don't use wetnotes for this. We agree it as we make our ascent. For instance if Fraser calls 5 mins at 21m and I think it should be more than I'd call a longer stop. If we disagree at that point then we'd get wetnotes out.

Cheers
Al

October 23rd, 2006, 10:41 PM	#41 (permalink)
limeyx(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 809	Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal) I just want to stress more fact that Hassan gave. Those who went trough Tech-1 and Tech-2 can say how much (little) time was dedicated to ratio deco and decompression in general comparing to other great tools and techniques. It's not that it doesn't work without GUE training but it can't be performed without skills, it doesn't make sense if not combined with rock-bottom and it's definitely easier to perform within team. yeah, for our T1, we had one evening of lectures on deco (out of a 5 day class). About 3/4 of that was on the history and evolution of deco models etc. the res was split between looking at patterns in deco with Decoplanner, and comparing runtimes/deco times, and how you get penalized with He. then we covered 2 techniques for calculating deco (ratio and by tweaking tables). Then the next day everyone ran the profiles the students calculated and dove (using ratio deco). I haven't yet used Decoplanner since (not to say I never will, just not needed to so far) __________________ my divelog: http://www.mydivinglife.com/limeyx

October 23rd, 2006, 10:42 PM	#42 (permalink)
limeyx(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 809	Quote: (Originally Posted by DanPartelly) Sorry ,mate. I reckon you where american. No problem, 10 years of living in los angeles makes it pretty hard to tell over the Internet, or in person sometimes. I've had people from college saying they never knew I was american before -- oops. __________________ my divelog: http://www.mydivinglife.com/limeyx

October 24th, 2006, 10:59 AM	#43 (permalink)
Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: hurghada Posts: 1,078	Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack) Ahmed what type of gear gets in the way of ratio deco? Gases I can understand but gear? Richard A major factor is that ratio deco on deeper dives really needs a greater variety of gasses. More stages means more technique needed to handle them. Regular gear is really not designed to carry that much kit under water. You actually need less to carry more. That is one reason why DIR is a suitable approach that ratio deco fits in well with. Now the problem that jumps up here is that you rarely find a person doing a TDI class that thinks along the DIR way. But once they see the reason behind the madness (we don't use lots of d-rings for example), they normally come around A small example: the divers note book becomes an inseperable peice of kit as well. Much better than the wrist slate when used properly. It really needs to be stowed in your right thigh pocket to have easy access for you and your team mates. In many cases, a TDI diver, will not have really seen need for thigh pockets as it is likely that they are taught to stow gear on the stage tanks. I have made a decompression workshop for experianced trimix divers that gets all that clear. It dose take 4 to 5 days though. But after which the diver has a real clear understanding and a chance to do some nice deep practice dives My previous students have been coming for it and they love it! Although they hate me for the computers I had sold them on their previous visits!!! Sorry for the long post. Ahmed __________________ Life and Death, although stemming from one another, seem to conflict as stages of change. Ahmed Adly, www.deepvoyage.com

October 24th, 2006, 05:51 PM	#45 (permalink)
Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: hurghada Posts: 1,078	Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack) Thanks. Not being trained any other way (like using a wrist slate), its hard for me to imagine the conflicts between some other gear and ratio deco. Example: when stages are on the right and left it becomes hard to reach your note book, and that is one hell of an important peice of gear that both you and your team mates need to have quick access to. Note book should be in right THIGH pocket. The thigh pocket is another peice of gear that is not standard with the non DIR crowd and we almost always have to get people sorted out with either pockets or x-shorts. Also, since it is kind of team based in it's application, some people need to change the way their gear is configured, just to fit in with a team. This is important, especially during training I think. But again, that's just me. I guess after people take the workshop, they pretty much use the knowledge any way they want to and since I don't consider my students a bunch of wandering idiots who are lost without me, I trust they will make the right choices. __________________ Life and Death, although stemming from one another, seem to conflict as stages of change. Ahmed Adly, www.deepvoyage.com

October 25th, 2006, 10:38 AM	#48 (permalink)
Janos(Offline) "Two Sheds" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 412	Quote: (Originally Posted by JeffG) There is no magic behind Ratio Deco. It is easy to come up with a "ratio deco" for air deco dives (I think Scuba_Steve on SB called this TDIing it) Yes. Someone asked me to come up with a set of rules for air / 50% that mimic 20/80 GFs. Ish. Deco on the Pie (DOTP) - YD Dive Forums & Scuba Community Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves DO of Hellfins

October 24th, 2006, 04:56 PM	#44 (permalink)
rjack (Online) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 977	Thanks. Not being trained any other way (like using a wrist slate), its hard for me to imagine the conflicts between some other gear and ratio deco.

October 25th, 2006, 09:16 AM	#46 (permalink)
JeffG(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 69	Quote: (Originally Posted by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC) Example: when stages are on the right and left it becomes hard to reach your note book, and that is one hell of an important peice of gear that both you and your team mates need to have quick access to. WTF does that have to do with Ratio Deco? Ratio deco describes a depth/time curve. It has no connection with gear other than what gases are required. It doesn't matter if they are on the left, right or glued to your butt. There is no magic behind Ratio Deco. It is easy to come up with a "ratio deco" for air deco dives (I think Scuba_Steve on SB called this TDIing it)

October 25th, 2006, 09:29 AM	#47 (permalink)
MonkSeal(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 566	Quote: (Originally Posted by JeffG) It has no connection with gear other than what gases are required. Procedure of performing it has connection with gear e.g. we use wet notes when agreeing upon average depth and bottom time which define decompression. IMO it's hard to separate tool itself from applying procedure because the efficiency (performance) is the most important part of the story. Without it, it's just a theory. Quote: (Originally Posted by JeffG) There is no magic behind Ratio Deco. I agree with that - it's just result of analyzing specific part of whole decompression picture.

October 25th, 2006, 10:48 AM	#49 (permalink)
Janos(Offline) "Two Sheds" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 412	Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal) Procedure of performing it has connection with gear e.g. we use wet notes when agreeing upon average depth and bottom time which define decompression. IMO it's hard to separate tool itself from applying procedure because the efficiency (performance) is the most important part of the story. Without it, it's just a theory. I'm confused. Why do you need to use wetnotes to agree average depth and bottom time? __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves DO of Hellfins

October 25th, 2006, 10:53 AM	#50 (permalink)
Alastair(Offline) DIRX Supporter Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 752	Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) I'm confused. Why do you need to use wetnotes to agree average depth and bottom time? I must admit I don't use wetnotes for this. We agree it as we make our ascent. For instance if Fraser calls 5 mins at 21m and I think it should be more than I'd call a longer stop. If we disagree at that point then we'd get wetnotes out. Cheers Al __________________ Helium is our friend - GI3