5thD-X Ratio Deco "Mini" - Page 4

DanPartelly · October 23rd, 2006, 12:48 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly)

Hello,

My belief is that if a person who knows little or nothing of DIR protocols tries to learn ratio deco by downloading a PDF

Hasan,

Do you care to expand upon this ? Lemme ask you a thing, wouldnt be a person which makes a deco schedule with Decoplanner (or any other public available software) and use it for a dive whithout necessary skills , protocols, or whatever, be in the same situation ?

I beleive yes. The method will be incomplete and prone to failure as well.
Yet deco software is freely sold. Ratio deco is just a tool. The skills to apply it practical cant be learned from pdf, but by the same resoning, the skills to apply a decoplaner profile cant be learned from Decoplanner's help files.

You can learn the theorethical tool just fine. I dont see why so much fuss arround this. Practical aplications will always require skills, protocols and so on. The odf is just fine for the rest

MonkSeal · October 23rd, 2006, 08:54 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly)

Ratio Deco is only one tool that is taught in GUE tech courses.

I just want to stress more fact that Hassan gave. Those who went trough Tech-1 and Tech-2 can say how much (little) time was dedicated to ratio deco and decompression in general comparing to other great tools and techniques. It's not that it doesn't work without GUE training but it can't be performed without skills, it doesn't make sense if not combined with rock-bottom and it's definitely easier to perform within team.

DanPartelly · October 23rd, 2006, 09:03 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal)

I just want to stress more fact that Hassan gave. Those who went trough Tech-1 and Tech-2 can say how much (little) time was dedicated to ratio deco and decompression in general comparing to other great tools and techniques. It's not that it doesn't work without GUE training but it can't be performed without skills, it doesn't make sense if not combined with rock-bottom and it's definitely easier to perform within team.

And so is any decompression technique. Whatever you use tables or notes with deco profiles, the points above are true as well. There is no need to emphasise them with ratio deco over any other kind of deco.

Im glad that more and more ppl see the light and aproach diving in a integrative process, but no decompression profile is safe whithout concepts like minimum gas reserve.

As I said, its just a tool. No need to make it apear like a voodo tool. Emphasise the skills needed to performs it safely, outline the skills, help divers to understand the principles behind it and procedures instead of seling them platitudes

*Hassan Adly* · October 23rd, 2006, 09:12 AM

Hello,

Yes I agree, if someone lacks the skills to carry out a profile safely then it makes little difference which method he/she uses to generate the profile.

As I said, Ratio Deco is only one of many tools & techniques given to the GUE Tech student. It's not even the only method used to calculate deco. It's not a black art and can be learned by anyone. I do believe the best place for learning it is a GUE course however, since that is where it gets its due perspective.

Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC · October 23rd, 2006, 09:33 AM

I see there is a discussion going on as to who owns this knowledge. Well this is how I do it, you can basically see how I feel about it from reading this.

I have integrated "on the fly" deco planning in my TDI classes and it seems to work pretty well for my trainees from all levels.
I start with minimum deco at Advanced Nitrox, 1:1 for deco procedures and Entry Level Trimix and all the other scary stuff at Advanced Trimix.
Also, I like using the tables function on deco planner to get deco times, that I can modify. That is also a great way of flying deco.

I encounter a few problems though:

1. You can't use any deco on the fly method whilst diving deeper than 30 meters on air (due to narcosis). Thus is dose not work as "on the fly" for Deco Procedures. But rather as an alternate method of pre planning and also to better ones knowledge of decompression theory and adding wider knowledge of how "other people do it".

2. It is hard to re-train a person into it who has already been trained in other methods.

3. Strangley enough, the way equipment is configured plays a role and it is sometimes not easy to get around without getting in someones way with TDI students. As sometimes, they have acquired gear through a buddy who swears on his mothers grave that it's the best.

It took me a while to get around to full adoption of this too. I would guess I have hundreds of decompression dives before I used Ratio and they all went well (I think), so I was not in any rush to master it.
But I was VERY pleased when Andrew published it and even more pleased when he explained it in person and ecstatic when he took me for some great dives and used it.

Please post any questions, flames as deemed appropriate.

Ahmed

DanPartelly · October 23rd, 2006, 09:52 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC)

Please post any questions, flames as deemed appropriate.

Ahmed

What can I say, except that I think you have a great attitude and I like your dilligent approach.

limeyx · October 23rd, 2006, 07:05 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by DanPartelly)

Yes, but thats a problem you guys have there, in USA. The land where lawyers gifted you with usch a wonderfull litigation system that nobody wins, except them , of course.

In Europe we have slightly different legal systems, thing which prevent slapping each other with lawsuits at all corners and times of the day.

heh, it's odd that I get called a "you guy" so often these days given that I bas born and and spent the next 17 years in Bristol, followed by 4 at uni in London before transferring to the good old US where the legal system is set up specifically (or has been warped to...) benefit only the lawyers.

limeyx · October 23rd, 2006, 07:06 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by lamont)

wait until you get hit by a car crossing the street.

even the sidewalks are not perfectly safe.

True, but you can decrease the odds of either by not playing in traffic

rjack · October 23rd, 2006, 08:20 PM

Ahmed what type of gear gets in the way of ratio deco?

Gases I can understand but gear?

I too have found that:

Quote:

Then again, my experience so far has been that for most DIW "tekkie" divers Ratio deco is a mere curiosity, and since it (along with DIR deco in general) doesn't fly well with their inculcated theories of counter-diffusion and oxygen tolerances, they don't use it, relying instead on their wrist computers or computer-generated runtime plans.

If a diver started out using some fancy software they tend to trust that software.

Richard

DanPartelly · October 23rd, 2006, 09:57 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx)

heh, it's odd that I get called a "you guy" so often these days given that I bas born and and spent the next 17 years in Bristol, followed by 4 at uni in London before transferring to the good old US where the legal system is set up specifically (or has been warped to...) benefit only the lawyers.

Sorry ,mate. I reckon you where american.

October 23rd, 2006, 08:54 AM	#32 (permalink)
MonkSeal(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 575	Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly) Ratio Deco is only one tool that is taught in GUE tech courses. I just want to stress more fact that Hassan gave. Those who went trough Tech-1 and Tech-2 can say how much (little) time was dedicated to ratio deco and decompression in general comparing to other great tools and techniques. It's not that it doesn't work without GUE training but it can't be performed without skills, it doesn't make sense if not combined with rock-bottom and it's definitely easier to perform within team. Last edited by MonkSeal; October 23rd, 2006 at 08:56 AM..

October 23rd, 2006, 09:12 AM	#34 (permalink)
Hassan Adly(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Red Sea Posts: 336	Hello, Yes I agree, if someone lacks the skills to carry out a profile safely then it makes little difference which method he/she uses to generate the profile. As I said, Ratio Deco is only one of many tools & techniques given to the GUE Tech student. It's not even the only method used to calculate deco. It's not a black art and can be learned by anyone. I do believe the best place for learning it is a GUE course however, since that is where it gets its due perspective. __________________ Hassan Adly Red Sea Discovery "Today I will finally see the sea again, which will smell of salt, wind, sand - and the cold of winter. Finally I will not only travel on it but dive in it, again I will become water, a bird - and I will remember the feeling of gliding above the abyss" Elena Sundukova, tragically lost at sea, January 2007

October 23rd, 2006, 09:33 AM	#35 (permalink)
Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: hurghada Posts: 1,100	I see there is a discussion going on as to who owns this knowledge. Well this is how I do it, you can basically see how I feel about it from reading this. I have integrated "on the fly" deco planning in my TDI classes and it seems to work pretty well for my trainees from all levels. I start with minimum deco at Advanced Nitrox, 1:1 for deco procedures and Entry Level Trimix and all the other scary stuff at Advanced Trimix. Also, I like using the tables function on deco planner to get deco times, that I can modify. That is also a great way of flying deco. I encounter a few problems though: 1. You can't use any deco on the fly method whilst diving deeper than 30 meters on air (due to narcosis). Thus is dose not work as "on the fly" for Deco Procedures. But rather as an alternate method of pre planning and also to better ones knowledge of decompression theory and adding wider knowledge of how "other people do it". 2. It is hard to re-train a person into it who has already been trained in other methods. 3. Strangley enough, the way equipment is configured plays a role and it is sometimes not easy to get around without getting in someones way with TDI students. As sometimes, they have acquired gear through a buddy who swears on his mothers grave that it's the best. It took me a while to get around to full adoption of this too. I would guess I have hundreds of decompression dives before I used Ratio and they all went well (I think), so I was not in any rush to master it. But I was VERY pleased when Andrew published it and even more pleased when he explained it in person and ecstatic when he took me for some great dives and used it. Please post any questions, flames as deemed appropriate. Ahmed __________________ Life and Death, although stemming from one another, seem to conflict as stages of change. Ahmed Adly, www.deepvoyage.com

October 23rd, 2006, 07:05 PM	#37 (permalink)
limeyx(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 822	Quote: (Originally Posted by DanPartelly) Yes, but thats a problem you guys have there, in USA. The land where lawyers gifted you with usch a wonderfull litigation system that nobody wins, except them , of course. In Europe we have slightly different legal systems, thing which prevent slapping each other with lawsuits at all corners and times of the day. heh, it's odd that I get called a "you guy" so often these days given that I bas born and and spent the next 17 years in Bristol, followed by 4 at uni in London before transferring to the good old US where the legal system is set up specifically (or has been warped to...) benefit only the lawyers. __________________ my divelog: http://www.mydivinglife.com/limeyx

October 23rd, 2006, 07:06 PM	#38 (permalink)
limeyx(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 822	Quote: (Originally Posted by lamont) wait until you get hit by a car crossing the street. even the sidewalks are not perfectly safe. True, but you can decrease the odds of either by not playing in traffic __________________ my divelog: http://www.mydivinglife.com/limeyx

October 23rd, 2006, 12:48 AM	#31 (permalink)
DanPartelly(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Romania Posts: 147	Quote: (Originally Posted by Hassan Adly) Hello, My belief is that if a person who knows little or nothing of DIR protocols tries to learn ratio deco by downloading a PDF Hasan, Do you care to expand upon this ? Lemme ask you a thing, wouldnt be a person which makes a deco schedule with Decoplanner (or any other public available software) and use it for a dive whithout necessary skills , protocols, or whatever, be in the same situation ? I beleive yes. The method will be incomplete and prone to failure as well. Yet deco software is freely sold. Ratio deco is just a tool. The skills to apply it practical cant be learned from pdf, but by the same resoning, the skills to apply a decoplaner profile cant be learned from Decoplanner's help files. You can learn the theorethical tool just fine. I dont see why so much fuss arround this. Practical aplications will always require skills, protocols and so on. The odf is just fine for the rest

October 23rd, 2006, 09:03 AM	#33 (permalink)
DanPartelly(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Romania Posts: 147	Quote: (Originally Posted by MonkSeal) I just want to stress more fact that Hassan gave. Those who went trough Tech-1 and Tech-2 can say how much (little) time was dedicated to ratio deco and decompression in general comparing to other great tools and techniques. It's not that it doesn't work without GUE training but it can't be performed without skills, it doesn't make sense if not combined with rock-bottom and it's definitely easier to perform within team. And so is any decompression technique. Whatever you use tables or notes with deco profiles, the points above are true as well. There is no need to emphasise them with ratio deco over any other kind of deco. Im glad that more and more ppl see the light and aproach diving in a integrative process, but no decompression profile is safe whithout concepts like minimum gas reserve. As I said, its just a tool. No need to make it apear like a voodo tool. Emphasise the skills needed to performs it safely, outline the skills, help divers to understand the principles behind it and procedures instead of seling them platitudes

October 23rd, 2006, 09:52 AM	#36 (permalink)
DanPartelly(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Romania Posts: 147	Quote: (Originally Posted by Ahmed Adly, Marlin Inn DC) Please post any questions, flames as deemed appropriate. Ahmed What can I say, except that I think you have a great attitude and I like your dilligent approach.

October 23rd, 2006, 08:20 PM	#39 (permalink)
rjack(Offline) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,011	Ahmed what type of gear gets in the way of ratio deco? Gases I can understand but gear? I too have found that: Quote: Then again, my experience so far has been that for most DIW "tekkie" divers Ratio deco is a mere curiosity, and since it (along with DIR deco in general) doesn't fly well with their inculcated theories of counter-diffusion and oxygen tolerances, they don't use it, relying instead on their wrist computers or computer-generated runtime plans. If a diver started out using some fancy software they tend to trust that software. Richard

October 23rd, 2006, 09:57 PM	#40 (permalink)
DanPartelly(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Romania Posts: 147	Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx) heh, it's odd that I get called a "you guy" so often these days given that I bas born and and spent the next 17 years in Bristol, followed by 4 at uni in London before transferring to the good old US where the legal system is set up specifically (or has been warped to...) benefit only the lawyers. Sorry ,mate. I reckon you where american.