5thD-X Ratio Deco "Mini" - Page 3

floater · October 22nd, 2006, 07:14 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rob Dobson)

Fundies left me somewhat disillusioned with GUE training and yet I still very much considered myself a DIR diver (albeit a newbie with *loads* to learn). Many of the wrecks that I wanted to experience were in the 30-60m range so I needed trimix training or would have to abandon the system I had come to respect and believe in. As time was also not on my side I didn’t necessarily have the 12 months or so that it can take to get a Tech1 cert card even if I could meet the standard.

I spoke with Mark Powell and did a team orientated trimix course that was probably as close to Tech1 as you could hope to find outside of GUE or 5thd – including simultaneous team failures in the form OoG’s, lost masks, bubbles in your ear…. The sort of dives that if they were to happen for real you would probably sell your dive kit and take up golf. The obvious difference being that Mark does not teach ratio deco.

Last week I had the opportunity to close that particular gap in my knowledge by learning ratio deco from the very man who invented it (Andrew Georgitsis) in the form of one of a “mini’” (http://www.breakthrudiving.com/index2.html).

What are the prereqs for the course, if any? Would you need a background in deco theory and deco diving to get it and apply it?

By the way, the link doesn't work, and even when I remove the bracket at then it still doesn't lead to anything useful...

lamont · October 22nd, 2006, 07:39 PM

Information wants to be free - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've never understood the viewpoint that you need to hide information because other people might hurt themselves with it...

limeyx · October 22nd, 2006, 08:13 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by lamont)

Information wants to be free - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've never understood the viewpoint that you need to hide information because other people might hurt themselves with it...

Wait until some moron(tm) reads one of your postings, follows it, injures (or kills themselves) and then slaps you with a lawsuit.

Even if it's baseless, you can be looking at some serious $ to defend yourselves, and if you think they wont/cant sue you because you're not an instructor/DM/anything else then might want to think again.

Sad but true.

floater · October 22nd, 2006, 08:34 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by lamont)

Information wants to be free - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've never understood the viewpoint that you need to hide information because other people might hurt themselves with it...

I think it's more about hiding trade secrets. It's a doubleedged sword, on the one hand you want people to imitate GUE (assuming it improves their diving/teaching), but on the other you don't want the imitators to take your students or to think they necessarily got the real thing without taking the GUE class.

I'm guessing that ratio deco is a major draw for GUE tech classes along with the perception (true or false) that GUE deco techniques are more advanced or better than what other agencies are teaching or what the prgorams/tables offer.

DanPartelly · October 22nd, 2006, 08:41 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by floater)

I'm guessing that ratio deco is a major draw for GUE tech classes along with the perception (true or false) that GUE deco techniques are more advanced or better than what other agencies are teaching or what the prgorams/tables offer.

Might be, but is a wrong point. It was the a TDI instructor through which posts I first got knowledge of ratio deco, deco on the fly or whatever you want to call it. The later AGs paper helped a lot as well. GUE didnt invented dec on the fly, but seems that it was the first agency to embrace fully the concept and make it integral part of the curriculum.

DanPartelly · October 22nd, 2006, 08:43 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx)

Wait until some moron(tm) reads one of your postings, follows it, injures (or kills themselves) and then slaps you with a lawsuit.

Even if it's baseless, you can be looking at some serious $ to defend yourselves, and if you think they wont/cant sue you because you're not an instructor/DM/anything else then might want to think again.

Sad but true.

Yes, but thats a problem you guys have there, in USA. The land where lawyers gifted you with usch a wonderfull litigation system that nobody wins, except them , of course.

In Europe we have slightly different legal systems, thing which prevent slapping each other with lawsuits at all corners and times of the day.

floater · October 22nd, 2006, 10:03 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx)

Wait until some moron(tm) reads one of your postings, follows it, injures (or kills themselves) and then slaps you with a lawsuit.

Even if it's baseless, you can be looking at some serious $ to defend yourselves, and if you think they wont/cant sue you because you're not an instructor/DM/anything else then might want to think again.

Sad but true.

The way to get around that is to add a disclaimer the way v-planner, gap and all the other deco programs do.

lamont · October 22nd, 2006, 11:24 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx)

Wait until some moron(tm) reads one of your postings, follows it, injures (or kills themselves) and then slaps you with a lawsuit.

wait until you get hit by a car crossing the street.

Quote:

Even if it's baseless, you can be looking at some serious $ to defend yourselves, and if you think they wont/cant sue you because you're not an instructor/DM/anything else then might want to think again.

even the sidewalks are not perfectly safe.

*Hassan Adly* · October 22nd, 2006, 11:59 PM

Hello,

Ratio Deco is only one tool that is taught in GUE tech courses. Although it maybe the main draw for some, they quickly find that the course gives them much more than just that one thing. Without a GUE course, Ratio Deco isn't really very special.

My belief is that if a person who knows little or nothing of DIR protocols tries to learn ratio deco by downloading a PDF, without acquiring the supporting knowledge and skills that come with fundamentals and Tech 1 courses, then their resulting method will be incomplete and prone to failure.

Then again, my experience so far has been that for most DIW "tekkie" divers Ratio deco is a mere curiosity, and since it (along with DIR deco in general) doesn't fly well with their inculcated theories of counter-diffusion and oxygen tolerances, they don't use it, relying instead on their wrist computers or computer-generated runtime plans.

Rob Dobson · October 23rd, 2006, 12:01 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by floater)

What are the prereqs for the course, if any? Would you need a background in deco theory and deco diving to get it and apply it?

By the way, the link doesn't work, and even when I remove the bracket at then it still doesn't lead to anything useful...

No pre-reqs as such really but he moves fast so read his paper and have a resonable understanding of deco before you go in.

He covered it from the very early basics right through to the level that people might refer to as Tech 3 in a GUE sense (not that ratio deco has anything particular to do with GUE) - so it was a very intense 7hr session but I think it is normally broken up.

Try this link: 5thD-X Home Page - training@5thd-x.com

October 22nd, 2006, 08:13 PM	#23 (permalink)
limeyx(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 809	Quote: (Originally Posted by lamont) Information wants to be free - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I've never understood the viewpoint that you need to hide information because other people might hurt themselves with it... Wait until some moron(tm) reads one of your postings, follows it, injures (or kills themselves) and then slaps you with a lawsuit. Even if it's baseless, you can be looking at some serious $ to defend yourselves, and if you think they wont/cant sue you because you're not an instructor/DM/anything else then might want to think again. Sad but true. __________________ my divelog: http://www.mydivinglife.com/limeyx

October 22nd, 2006, 08:41 PM	#25 (permalink)
DanPartelly(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Romania Posts: 147	Quote: (Originally Posted by floater) I'm guessing that ratio deco is a major draw for GUE tech classes along with the perception (true or false) that GUE deco techniques are more advanced or better than what other agencies are teaching or what the prgorams/tables offer. Might be, but is a wrong point. It was the a TDI instructor through which posts I first got knowledge of ratio deco, deco on the fly or whatever you want to call it. The later AGs paper helped a lot as well. GUE didnt invented dec on the fly, but seems that it was the first agency to embrace fully the concept and make it integral part of the curriculum. Last edited by DanPartelly; October 22nd, 2006 at 08:44 PM..

October 22nd, 2006, 11:59 PM	#29 (permalink)
Hassan Adly(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Red Sea Posts: 328	Hello, Ratio Deco is only one tool that is taught in GUE tech courses. Although it maybe the main draw for some, they quickly find that the course gives them much more than just that one thing. Without a GUE course, Ratio Deco isn't really very special. My belief is that if a person who knows little or nothing of DIR protocols tries to learn ratio deco by downloading a PDF, without acquiring the supporting knowledge and skills that come with fundamentals and Tech 1 courses, then their resulting method will be incomplete and prone to failure. Then again, my experience so far has been that for most DIW "tekkie" divers Ratio deco is a mere curiosity, and since it (along with DIR deco in general) doesn't fly well with their inculcated theories of counter-diffusion and oxygen tolerances, they don't use it, relying instead on their wrist computers or computer-generated runtime plans. __________________ Hassan Adly Red Sea Discovery "Today I will finally see the sea again, which will smell of salt, wind, sand - and the cold of winter. Finally I will not only travel on it but dive in it, again I will become water, a bird - and I will remember the feeling of gliding above the abyss" Elena Sundukova, tragically lost at sea, January 2007

October 22nd, 2006, 07:14 PM	#21 (permalink)
floater(Offline) Mostly harmless Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Currently in the US, but I'm not American Posts: 155	Quote: (Originally Posted by Rob Dobson) Fundies left me somewhat disillusioned with GUE training and yet I still very much considered myself a DIR diver (albeit a newbie with loads to learn). Many of the wrecks that I wanted to experience were in the 30-60m range so I needed trimix training or would have to abandon the system I had come to respect and believe in. As time was also not on my side I didn’t necessarily have the 12 months or so that it can take to get a Tech1 cert card even if I could meet the standard. I spoke with Mark Powell and did a team orientated trimix course that was probably as close to Tech1 as you could hope to find outside of GUE or 5thd – including simultaneous team failures in the form OoG’s, lost masks, bubbles in your ear…. The sort of dives that if they were to happen for real you would probably sell your dive kit and take up golf. The obvious difference being that Mark does not teach ratio deco. Last week I had the opportunity to close that particular gap in my knowledge by learning ratio deco from the very man who invented it (Andrew Georgitsis) in the form of one of a “mini’” (http://www.breakthrudiving.com/index2.html). What are the prereqs for the course, if any? Would you need a background in deco theory and deco diving to get it and apply it? By the way, the link doesn't work, and even when I remove the bracket at then it still doesn't lead to anything useful...

October 22nd, 2006, 07:39 PM	#22 (permalink)
lamont(Offline) APLP Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 196	Information wants to be free - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I've never understood the viewpoint that you need to hide information because other people might hurt themselves with it...

October 22nd, 2006, 08:34 PM	#24 (permalink)
floater(Offline) Mostly harmless Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Currently in the US, but I'm not American Posts: 155	Quote: (Originally Posted by lamont) Information wants to be free - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I've never understood the viewpoint that you need to hide information because other people might hurt themselves with it... I think it's more about hiding trade secrets. It's a doubleedged sword, on the one hand you want people to imitate GUE (assuming it improves their diving/teaching), but on the other you don't want the imitators to take your students or to think they necessarily got the real thing without taking the GUE class. I'm guessing that ratio deco is a major draw for GUE tech classes along with the perception (true or false) that GUE deco techniques are more advanced or better than what other agencies are teaching or what the prgorams/tables offer.

October 22nd, 2006, 08:43 PM	#26 (permalink)
DanPartelly(Offline) New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Romania Posts: 147	Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx) Wait until some moron(tm) reads one of your postings, follows it, injures (or kills themselves) and then slaps you with a lawsuit. Even if it's baseless, you can be looking at some serious $ to defend yourselves, and if you think they wont/cant sue you because you're not an instructor/DM/anything else then might want to think again. Sad but true. Yes, but thats a problem you guys have there, in USA. The land where lawyers gifted you with usch a wonderfull litigation system that nobody wins, except them , of course. In Europe we have slightly different legal systems, thing which prevent slapping each other with lawsuits at all corners and times of the day.

October 22nd, 2006, 10:03 PM	#27 (permalink)
floater(Offline) Mostly harmless Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Currently in the US, but I'm not American Posts: 155	Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx) Wait until some moron(tm) reads one of your postings, follows it, injures (or kills themselves) and then slaps you with a lawsuit. Even if it's baseless, you can be looking at some serious $ to defend yourselves, and if you think they wont/cant sue you because you're not an instructor/DM/anything else then might want to think again. Sad but true. The way to get around that is to add a disclaimer the way v-planner, gap and all the other deco programs do.

October 22nd, 2006, 11:24 PM	#28 (permalink)
lamont(Offline) APLP Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 196	Quote: (Originally Posted by limeyx) Wait until some moron(tm) reads one of your postings, follows it, injures (or kills themselves) and then slaps you with a lawsuit. wait until you get hit by a car crossing the street. Quote: Even if it's baseless, you can be looking at some serious $ to defend yourselves, and if you think they wont/cant sue you because you're not an instructor/DM/anything else then might want to think again. even the sidewalks are not perfectly safe.

October 23rd, 2006, 12:01 AM	#30 (permalink)
Rob Dobson(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Oxford Posts: 686	Quote: (Originally Posted by floater) What are the prereqs for the course, if any? Would you need a background in deco theory and deco diving to get it and apply it? By the way, the link doesn't work, and even when I remove the bracket at then it still doesn't lead to anything useful... No pre-reqs as such really but he moves fast so read his paper and have a resonable understanding of deco before you go in. He covered it from the very early basics right through to the level that people might refer to as Tech 3 in a GUE sense (not that ratio deco has anything particular to do with GUE) - so it was a very intense 7hr session but I think it is normally broken up. Try this link: 5thD-X Home Page - training@5thd-x.com