Your thoughts please....

*Clare Gledhill* · September 13th, 2006, 12:04 AM

Been pondering deco (again)

You are in the water and your deco gas fails (forget why).

What have you been trained to do? (I'm interested in GUE and non GUE answers please)

*Hassan Adly* · September 13th, 2006, 02:14 AM

Hi Clare,

The way I've been taught is this:

Share the stage with your buddy, multiplying all subsequent deco stops by 1.5, for example if you had a linear profile on 50% of 4 mins per stop then you would do 6 mins per stop.

Each buddy uses the stage for half of each stop. When not breathing from the stage, breath backgas.

If the stops are really short, like a couple of minutes each or less, alternate between stops, ie you breathe the stage on one stop, your buddy breaths it on the next, and so on.

It's ok to be more conservative and increase the time a bit more if conditions and gas reserves permit.

In case of a lost/failed oxygen stage, you can also multiply the stop time by 1.5, only instead of doing 6 minute backgas breaks, just cycle between each other 12/12, so 12 minutes O2, 12 mins backgas, and so on. For example 30 mins of deco would normally be 12/6/12, now it would be 45 (actually 48) mins, 12/12/12/12. The time on O2 would be equal to what it would be if no incident occured.

Another option in case of lost O2 is to continue on 50% and simply double the stop time. Sometimes divers do this if they simply run out of O2 because of long deco or a CF in gas planning. If doing it at the beginning of an O2 stop because of a lost or failed stage, I would recommend both divers staying on 50%, to avoid the situation where one diver still has lots of deco while the other needs to ascend so as not to exceed oxygen CNS limits.

We recently had an incident where a diver lost a leash with a used bottom stage and a full oxygen stage on it (my theory is that she clipped it to a fold in her drysuit rather than to the hip d-ring, doh). Retrieving the stages was out of the question, and since conditions were great and they had full 80's of 50%, they went for the second option, decoing out on 50%. It took them longer than the first option would have, but they said they preferred spending a little more time in the water nice and relaxed as opposed to passing a stage back and forth.

Oh, and they found the stages (attached to my leash) the next day

Rubis · September 13th, 2006, 08:02 AM

Buddy breath the deco gas with your buddy ...

finbar.taylor · September 13th, 2006, 08:04 AM

Personaly I dive with a lost gas plan If I'm having a complete CF of a day and I lose buddy(even went in with one) and a deco gas I can still deco out on travel gas or travel and back gas or just back gas.

I often dive solo (I know but this is not what the discussion is about) and because of this my dive planning is very concervative. For a 50m - 35minute dive I would expect to return to the boat with 130-160bar of back gas and probably used 1/3rd of each stage. I dive two stages so if one faliure I can still efectivly deco out on the other but could almost certainly manage this on back gas.

If I was one of a buddy pair or part of a team then this would change dramaticaly I would still have lost gas plan but for the stops that were longer I would wait for buddy to finish his deco at depth x and then do the same time again on there deco gas. judging on a case by case basis if I was better off doing the lost gas or the shareing stops.

Fin

caverkevin · September 13th, 2006, 08:27 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill)

You are in the water and your deco gas fails (forget why).

What have you been trained to do? (I'm interested in GUE and non GUE answers please)

Hello Clare,

When I saw this post this morning it made me think of Rubis. As she always asks this type of open-ended failure questions. Looking a specific answer when the details are vague.

As far as what I have been trained to do in the event of a problem, stop & breathe & think & breathe & come up with a plan & breathe & make it happen & breathe....... As all descents must have a equal accent. These are a sample of what i have done in real life.

In a trimix class, diving wrecks in ice cold Lake Superior. The reg on one of the students 50% bottle decided to free-flow. In order to keep on plan, keep moving and keep the issue under control. We buddy breathed together until the shallow stops. Once shallow I turned him over to his buddy. Then had him practice feathering the valve. There had been extra gas planned into everyone's needs for just such an event.

Another ice cold wreck dive, this time Lake Huron in April. I was diving solo to a wreck in 60 meters of water that was 1C top to bottom. The ice had just came off the lake

I had forgotten my stage regs at home. So I used my buddies regs, a SP MK5/balenced adjustable and a SP MK20/G250HP. Opened up the first deco gas and the MK5/BA free-flowed without even breathing from the reg yet. No problem as there is still a bunch or gas and it is coming out of the reg. Just feathered the valve all the way up to 6 meters. Switched to oxygen from the MK20/G250HP. I got one breath and the second stage froze shut. I could not get gas out of the reg. So I just switched back to the low mix and feathering the valve. After a couple minutes I check the oxygen reg again, still frozen closed. So the new scheme was to breathe in on the low mix/feathered valve and switch & exhale into the frozen second stage. After a minute of this I was able to get the reg back to operation and finish the deco with O2. Regardless, I could have finished the deco on just the low mix. After drying the reg out after the dive, my buddy had no problems with them on his dive.

The last one was at Ginnie Springs/Devils Eye-Ear cave. I came out of the Eye just behind my buddies. One of them thought it would be funny to steal my O2 reg off the bottle. So I had a bottle with no reg. If I really had to, could have breathed right from the valve. It is a easy skill and used to use with OW students in private classes. Instead of that I chose to attack the buddy until I got my reg and any reg. In the end I got one of his back gas regs. We called truce, traded our regs back and had a good laugh after the dive.

So there are all sorts of solutions to this type of problem. Just have to figure out which one makes the best sense at that given time. Quick decision making and problem solving under pressure.......isn't diving just grand??

Cheers!!

Kevin

TDave · September 13th, 2006, 09:21 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by finbar.taylor)

I often dive solo (I know but this is not what the discussion is about) and because of this my dive planning is very concervative. For a 50m - 35minute dive I would expect to return to the boat with 130-160bar of back gas and probably used 1/3rd of each stage. I dive two stages so if one faliure I can still efectivly deco out on the other but could almost certainly manage this on back gas.

Can someone please take a second to remind me why the DIR Explorers forum was started?

Granted, at least this was written from admittedly not being a GUE post, that's fair enough, but such a post has positively no relevance diving DIR on any level.

Besides which, the idea one can dive conservatively and dive solo at the same time strikes me as an oxymoron.

Hassan's post pretty much covers what I'd do although, depending on the situation I would probably just double the stop times dependant upon water temperature and other factors.

TD

MonkSeal · September 13th, 2006, 09:28 AM

For T1 range of dives (S curve shaped stops) round up intermediate stops to even number of minutes (you can be more conservative if resources allow), one stop breath backgas other stop breath nitrox 50 from team, double 6 m and 3 m stops.

finbar.taylor · September 13th, 2006, 09:48 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by TDave)

Can someone please take a second to remind me why the DIR Explorers forum was started?

Granted, at least this was written from admittedly not being a GUE post, that's fair enough, but such a post has positively no relevance diving DIR on any level.

Besides which, the idea one can dive conservatively and dive solo at the same time strikes me as an oxymoron.

Hassan's post pretty much covers what I'd do although, depending on the situation I would probably just double the stop times dependant upon water temperature and other factors.

TD

How about getting off your horse a minute and winding your neck back in!

In my introduction I mentioned I'm not gue trained
In the opening post it asked what people from other agencys did
in my post I mention it was againt your standards but with in mine (I hols a solo diving ticket)

Every one in diving can learn from every one there is no god of diving and any one can have a somthing to say thats why I'm here I respond to very few posts as I dive diferently from people on here I respond to this post as I was invited to and do not expect the discurtosey of being flamed for it

*Hassan Adly* · September 13th, 2006, 10:10 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by finbar.taylor)

there is no god of diving

Sacrilege!

TDave · September 13th, 2006, 10:21 AM

Finbar

It was nothing personal, and if it came across that way then I apologise. Of course you're free to dive whichever way you want, and as conservatively as you want.. but I read the 'GUE or non GUE answers' part as still concentrating on being some form of DIR answer, given that this is to my knowledge a DIR forum, and therefore I would kind have hoped for answers that at least didn't have to drag up solo diving practises (being that such posts were the reason I for one gave up on the YD DIR forum).

I'm not asking for a GUE response, nor am I looking for a flame war etc. To which end this is my last post on the subject.

Anyway, apologies for any offence caused, it wasn't intended that way.

All the best

September 13th, 2006, 12:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
Clare Gledhill (Online) GUE Instructor Site Admin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,540	Your thoughts please.... Been pondering deco (again) You are in the water and your deco gas fails (forget why). What have you been trained to do? (I'm interested in GUE and non GUE answers please) __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk

September 13th, 2006, 02:14 AM	#2 (permalink)
Hassan Adly(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Red Sea Posts: 286	Hi Clare, The way I've been taught is this: Share the stage with your buddy, multiplying all subsequent deco stops by 1.5, for example if you had a linear profile on 50% of 4 mins per stop then you would do 6 mins per stop. Each buddy uses the stage for half of each stop. When not breathing from the stage, breath backgas. If the stops are really short, like a couple of minutes each or less, alternate between stops, ie you breathe the stage on one stop, your buddy breaths it on the next, and so on. It's ok to be more conservative and increase the time a bit more if conditions and gas reserves permit. In case of a lost/failed oxygen stage, you can also multiply the stop time by 1.5, only instead of doing 6 minute backgas breaks, just cycle between each other 12/12, so 12 minutes O2, 12 mins backgas, and so on. For example 30 mins of deco would normally be 12/6/12, now it would be 45 (actually 48) mins, 12/12/12/12. The time on O2 would be equal to what it would be if no incident occured. Another option in case of lost O2 is to continue on 50% and simply double the stop time. Sometimes divers do this if they simply run out of O2 because of long deco or a CF in gas planning. If doing it at the beginning of an O2 stop because of a lost or failed stage, I would recommend both divers staying on 50%, to avoid the situation where one diver still has lots of deco while the other needs to ascend so as not to exceed oxygen CNS limits. We recently had an incident where a diver lost a leash with a used bottom stage and a full oxygen stage on it (my theory is that she clipped it to a fold in her drysuit rather than to the hip d-ring, doh). Retrieving the stages was out of the question, and since conditions were great and they had full 80's of 50%, they went for the second option, decoing out on 50%. It took them longer than the first option would have, but they said they preferred spending a little more time in the water nice and relaxed as opposed to passing a stage back and forth. Oh, and they found the stages (attached to my leash) the next day __________________ Hassan Adly Red Sea Discovery "Today I will finally see the sea again, which will smell of salt, wind, sand - and the cold of winter. Finally I will not only travel on it but dive in it, again I will become water, a bird - and I will remember the feeling of gliding above the abyss" Elena Sundukova, tragically lost at sea, January 2007 Last edited by Hassan Adly; September 13th, 2006 at 12:45 PM.

September 13th, 2006, 08:02 AM	#3 (permalink)
Rubis(Offline) cave deprived and Kissed Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Broadway, (lost in Central NC, USA far far way from Caves SIGH !!!) Posts: 275	Buddy breath the deco gas with your buddy ... __________________ Petition against M26

September 13th, 2006, 08:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
finbar.taylor(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Guildford Posts: 85	Non GUE answer Personaly I dive with a lost gas plan If I'm having a complete CF of a day and I lose buddy(even went in with one) and a deco gas I can still deco out on travel gas or travel and back gas or just back gas. I often dive solo (I know but this is not what the discussion is about) and because of this my dive planning is very concervative. For a 50m - 35minute dive I would expect to return to the boat with 130-160bar of back gas and probably used 1/3rd of each stage. I dive two stages so if one faliure I can still efectivly deco out on the other but could almost certainly manage this on back gas. If I was one of a buddy pair or part of a team then this would change dramaticaly I would still have lost gas plan but for the stops that were longer I would wait for buddy to finish his deco at depth x and then do the same time again on there deco gas. judging on a case by case basis if I was better off doing the lost gas or the shareing stops. Fin

September 13th, 2006, 09:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
TDave(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lancaster, UK Posts: 93	Quote: (Originally Posted by finbar.taylor) I often dive solo (I know but this is not what the discussion is about) and because of this my dive planning is very concervative. For a 50m - 35minute dive I would expect to return to the boat with 130-160bar of back gas and probably used 1/3rd of each stage. I dive two stages so if one faliure I can still efectivly deco out on the other but could almost certainly manage this on back gas. Can someone please take a second to remind me why the DIR Explorers forum was started? Granted, at least this was written from admittedly not being a GUE post, that's fair enough, but such a post has positively no relevance diving DIR on any level. Besides which, the idea one can dive conservatively and dive solo at the same time strikes me as an oxymoron. Hassan's post pretty much covers what I'd do although, depending on the situation I would probably just double the stop times dependant upon water temperature and other factors. TD __________________ Dave Smith

September 13th, 2006, 08:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
caverkevin(Offline) Doing It Caverkevin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: North Kackilackie Posts: 360	Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill) You are in the water and your deco gas fails (forget why). What have you been trained to do? (I'm interested in GUE and non GUE answers please) Hello Clare, When I saw this post this morning it made me think of Rubis. As she always asks this type of open-ended failure questions. Looking a specific answer when the details are vague. As far as what I have been trained to do in the event of a problem, stop & breathe & think & breathe & come up with a plan & breathe & make it happen & breathe....... As all descents must have a equal accent. These are a sample of what i have done in real life. In a trimix class, diving wrecks in ice cold Lake Superior. The reg on one of the students 50% bottle decided to free-flow. In order to keep on plan, keep moving and keep the issue under control. We buddy breathed together until the shallow stops. Once shallow I turned him over to his buddy. Then had him practice feathering the valve. There had been extra gas planned into everyone's needs for just such an event. Another ice cold wreck dive, this time Lake Huron in April. I was diving solo to a wreck in 60 meters of water that was 1C top to bottom. The ice had just came off the lake I had forgotten my stage regs at home. So I used my buddies regs, a SP MK5/balenced adjustable and a SP MK20/G250HP. Opened up the first deco gas and the MK5/BA free-flowed without even breathing from the reg yet. No problem as there is still a bunch or gas and it is coming out of the reg. Just feathered the valve all the way up to 6 meters. Switched to oxygen from the MK20/G250HP. I got one breath and the second stage froze shut. I could not get gas out of the reg. So I just switched back to the low mix and feathering the valve. After a couple minutes I check the oxygen reg again, still frozen closed. So the new scheme was to breathe in on the low mix/feathered valve and switch & exhale into the frozen second stage. After a minute of this I was able to get the reg back to operation and finish the deco with O2. Regardless, I could have finished the deco on just the low mix. After drying the reg out after the dive, my buddy had no problems with them on his dive. The last one was at Ginnie Springs/Devils Eye-Ear cave. I came out of the Eye just behind my buddies. One of them thought it would be funny to steal my O2 reg off the bottle. So I had a bottle with no reg. If I really had to, could have breathed right from the valve. It is a easy skill and used to use with OW students in private classes. Instead of that I chose to attack the buddy until I got my reg and any reg. In the end I got one of his back gas regs. We called truce, traded our regs back and had a good laugh after the dive. So there are all sorts of solutions to this type of problem. Just have to figure out which one makes the best sense at that given time. Quick decision making and problem solving under pressure.......isn't diving just grand?? Cheers!! Kevin

September 13th, 2006, 09:28 AM	#7 (permalink)
MonkSeal(Offline) Old Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 472	For T1 range of dives (S curve shaped stops) round up intermediate stops to even number of minutes (you can be more conservative if resources allow), one stop breath backgas other stop breath nitrox 50 from team, double 6 m and 3 m stops.

September 13th, 2006, 09:48 AM	#8 (permalink)
finbar.taylor(Offline) New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Guildford Posts: 85	Quote: (Originally Posted by TDave) Can someone please take a second to remind me why the DIR Explorers forum was started? Granted, at least this was written from admittedly not being a GUE post, that's fair enough, but such a post has positively no relevance diving DIR on any level. Besides which, the idea one can dive conservatively and dive solo at the same time strikes me as an oxymoron. Hassan's post pretty much covers what I'd do although, depending on the situation I would probably just double the stop times dependant upon water temperature and other factors. TD How about getting off your horse a minute and winding your neck back in! In my introduction I mentioned I'm not gue trained In the opening post it asked what people from other agencys did in my post I mention it was againt your standards but with in mine (I hols a solo diving ticket) Every one in diving can learn from every one there is no god of diving and any one can have a somthing to say thats why I'm here I respond to very few posts as I dive diferently from people on here I respond to this post as I was invited to and do not expect the discurtosey of being flamed for it Last edited by finbar.taylor; September 13th, 2006 at 09:51 AM.

September 13th, 2006, 10:10 AM	#9 (permalink)
Hassan Adly(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Red Sea Posts: 286	Quote: (Originally Posted by finbar.taylor) there is no god of diving Sacrilege! __________________ Hassan Adly Red Sea Discovery "Today I will finally see the sea again, which will smell of salt, wind, sand - and the cold of winter. Finally I will not only travel on it but dive in it, again I will become water, a bird - and I will remember the feeling of gliding above the abyss" Elena Sundukova, tragically lost at sea, January 2007

September 13th, 2006, 10:21 AM	#10 (permalink)
TDave(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lancaster, UK Posts: 93	Finbar It was nothing personal, and if it came across that way then I apologise. Of course you're free to dive whichever way you want, and as conservatively as you want.. but I read the 'GUE or non GUE answers' part as still concentrating on being some form of DIR answer, given that this is to my knowledge a DIR forum, and therefore I would kind have hoped for answers that at least didn't have to drag up solo diving practises (being that such posts were the reason I for one gave up on the YD DIR forum). I'm not asking for a GUE response, nor am I looking for a flame war etc. To which end this is my last post on the subject. Anyway, apologies for any offence caused, it wasn't intended that way. All the best __________________ Dave Smith