Catastrophic drysuit failure in cold cave

tanto · May 2nd, 2006, 10:17 PM

Say that you are returning from a 60 minute long progression in a cold water cave (7°C) at 60m average depth, and when you start ascending your buddy experiences a catastrophic failure of the drysuit zipper, so that the drysuit is fully open and totally flooded.
The deco obligation in that moment is in the neighborhood of 90'.
There is no way anyone can survive more than a few minutes without thermal protection in such cold water.
There is probably no one that can survive after a quick surfacing either.
What could and should you do?
The drysuit is, as far as I know, without possible redundancy.
Cold water kills.

Devon Rob · May 2nd, 2006, 10:48 PM

Hi tanto,
You certainly wouldn´t die from the cold within minutes. You are still afforded considerable insulation from your undergarments and suit (Some UG are supposed to have very good wet insulation characteristics) important would be to reduce the flow of water around the suit as much as possible as with a wet suit. If you were lucky (and considering the profile you give...you´re NOT) You could survive with the use of a habitat/chamber. The priority must be to decompress as best as possible and get out of the water ASAP. one thing is certain, your chances of getting bent are pretty good. Not so sure that it´s a certain death scenario though.

I´ve survived 30 minutes deco in a holed suit at 4°C with no side effects apart from hating every %$§/%§.. minute!

Rob Dobson · May 2nd, 2006, 10:56 PM

I think that's why dives with that sort of deco obligation are generally done by people wearing undersuits that can keep you warm even when the suit floods. But you are talking about a *serious* flood here and at the worst possible time (after the obligation has been incurred). A zip might fail when you do it up or undo it but to randomly fail after an hour in the water seems unlikely...

However - for arguements sake if you were somehow in really cold water with no thermal protection you would have no choice but to get out of the water as you would die of exposure before getting anywhere near completing your stops. Depending on the surface cover you had the immediate ascent is not necessarily fatal - remember Mark Andrews had an uncontrolled ascent from some incredible depth once (like 270m or something crazy like that) and survived without so much as a skin bend; but then he was able to jump back in and do 10hrs of deco at 30m. In your scenario you'd have to get dry and changed and back in the water in a few minutes and that's a big ask. Most skippers need more time than that to get you out of the water...

Martin Burnard · May 2nd, 2006, 10:57 PM

Lesson learned here by me..... whenits that cold don't dive!

Enjoy the Baltic.

Mal Bridgeman · May 2nd, 2006, 11:36 PM

The HSE Dive Safely video features just such an incident. A guy was diving to 80m or so and had a large deco obligation. When his zip burst at the bottom he made a near direct ascent to the surface. He got a massive bend and was still recovering when the video ends. I think he could only dive to a max of 20m on nitrox and still has a lack of sensation.

Can't find anymore detail on the incident though.

Rgrds
Mal

Hybrid · May 3rd, 2006, 01:19 AM

That is a life and death situation, and needs to treated that way.

What I would do is continue the deco, as long as I could, then surface, and slowly as possible, hopefully, someone will have something that you can get changed into and jump back in the water and continue decoing,(with someone) wait until a rescue chopper can come and airlift me to recompression chamber.

Being hypothemic and bent would suck

lizardland · May 3rd, 2006, 02:09 AM

I think there is one very important point being missed here. A catastrophic flood is not simply a question of how long your body can endure the cold.

The effects of sudden cold water immersion are massive, there is a loss of breathing control -- breathing rate increases by 6-10 times in cold water within the first minute or two. At say 80m, that's a diver going from 160l/min to 1600l/min to give it some perspective, or emptying a stage bottle in a minute or two and the chances are that the reg will freeflow or be overbreathed. Even when stabilised, the breathing rate will increase by a lot. The ability to hold one's breath is reduced to about 10-15s which could compound the problem of donating a reg when the gas runs out. Severe panic is an inevitable side effect of cold too.

The other physiological effects of cold water shock on otherwise healthy people is that cardiac arrest is a very real possibility. Very few people who die by sudden cold water immersion actually die from drowning or hypothermia and most actually die within a few metres of safety.

The diver's ability to maintain some level of mental control enough to do any task underwater will be greatly impaired, assuming they remain concious. Even if there was enough gas to get them through a long deco, it is questionable if they would still be able to function adequately and manual dexterity would be pretty much nil.

Of course, these are the effects of a sudden and massive failure of the drysuit in cold water. A relatively slow leak where cold water shock isn't a factor will not have many of the above symptoms but will introduce a new set of problems. One diver from the CDG survived a torn wrist seal in a cave at 120m a couple of years ago. As long as you can do something to stem the leak then it is a fairly minor event (he used a snoopy loop round the torn seal).

Devon Rob · May 3rd, 2006, 02:42 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Martin Burnard)

Lesson learned here by me..... when its that cold don't dive! Enjoy the Baltic.

Hi Martin,
I sure will... my first ice dive in Hamburg. one guy dived in a semi dry!
TWICE!

They make `em hardy on the Baltic.

Back to the thread... a chatostrophic failure in a drysuit zipper is pretty hard to achieve underwater unless your pumping it full of gas.

LCF · May 3rd, 2006, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Very few people who die by sudden cold water immersion actually die from drowning or hypothermia and most actually die within a few metres of safety.

Do you have a reference for this, because I've never heard it, and I'm an ER doc.

I've had a drysuit flood in 46 degree water when a neck seal went. It took 30 minutes to get back to shore. I was cold, but I wasn't hypothermic to a serious degree, and I certainly wasn't dead. Two layers of 200g quilted Thinsulate can be amazingly insulating, even in cold water.

davy · May 3rd, 2006, 10:08 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rob Dobson)

A zip might fail when you do it up or undo it but to randomly fail after an hour in the water seems unlikely...

dunno, 2 years ago my buddy blew his back zipper wide open 30mins into a dive.
This was during summer and the north sea was 20 degrees warm so he kept diving

however, getting back on the rocking boat was a real challenge looking like a Michelin man.
We had to cut his dry suit at the feet to let the water out.

Although I don't think a front zip is likely to fail during the dive...

May 2nd, 2006, 10:17 PM	#1 (permalink)
tanto(Offline) New Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: italy Posts: 63	Catastrophic drysuit failure in cold cave Say that you are returning from a 60 minute long progression in a cold water cave (7°C) at 60m average depth, and when you start ascending your buddy experiences a catastrophic failure of the drysuit zipper, so that the drysuit is fully open and totally flooded. The deco obligation in that moment is in the neighborhood of 90'. There is no way anyone can survive more than a few minutes without thermal protection in such cold water. There is probably no one that can survive after a quick surfacing either. What could and should you do? The drysuit is, as far as I know, without possible redundancy. Cold water kills.

May 2nd, 2006, 10:48 PM	#2 (permalink)
Devon Rob(Offline) Can´t remember-member Breakout Champion! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lyme Bay.Devon.UK formerly Hamburg, Ger. Posts: 316	Hi tanto, You certainly wouldn´t die from the cold within minutes. You are still afforded considerable insulation from your undergarments and suit (Some UG are supposed to have very good wet insulation characteristics) important would be to reduce the flow of water around the suit as much as possible as with a wet suit. If you were lucky (and considering the profile you give...you´re NOT) You could survive with the use of a habitat/chamber. The priority must be to decompress as best as possible and get out of the water ASAP. one thing is certain, your chances of getting bent are pretty good. Not so sure that it´s a certain death scenario though. I´ve survived 30 minutes deco in a holed suit at 4°C with no side effects apart from hating every %$§/%§.. minute! __________________ this mail was checked for viruses,worms & bad breath

May 2nd, 2006, 11:36 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mal Bridgeman (Online) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Suffolk, UK Posts: 662	The HSE Dive Safely video features just such an incident. A guy was diving to 80m or so and had a large deco obligation. When his zip burst at the bottom he made a near direct ascent to the surface. He got a massive bend and was still recovering when the video ends. I think he could only dive to a max of 20m on nitrox and still has a lack of sensation. Can't find anymore detail on the incident though. Rgrds Mal __________________ Opinions and beliefs are correct at the time of posting but are subject to change without any notice or obligation on the part of the author.

May 3rd, 2006, 02:09 AM	#7 (permalink)
lizardland(Offline) LCS Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Evidently Chickentown Posts: 591	I think there is one very important point being missed here. A catastrophic flood is not simply a question of how long your body can endure the cold. The effects of sudden cold water immersion are massive, there is a loss of breathing control -- breathing rate increases by 6-10 times in cold water within the first minute or two. At say 80m, that's a diver going from 160l/min to 1600l/min to give it some perspective, or emptying a stage bottle in a minute or two and the chances are that the reg will freeflow or be overbreathed. Even when stabilised, the breathing rate will increase by a lot. The ability to hold one's breath is reduced to about 10-15s which could compound the problem of donating a reg when the gas runs out. Severe panic is an inevitable side effect of cold too. The other physiological effects of cold water shock on otherwise healthy people is that cardiac arrest is a very real possibility. Very few people who die by sudden cold water immersion actually die from drowning or hypothermia and most actually die within a few metres of safety. The diver's ability to maintain some level of mental control enough to do any task underwater will be greatly impaired, assuming they remain concious. Even if there was enough gas to get them through a long deco, it is questionable if they would still be able to function adequately and manual dexterity would be pretty much nil. Of course, these are the effects of a sudden and massive failure of the drysuit in cold water. A relatively slow leak where cold water shock isn't a factor will not have many of the above symptoms but will introduce a new set of problems. One diver from the CDG survived a torn wrist seal in a cave at 120m a couple of years ago. As long as you can do something to stem the leak then it is a fairly minor event (he used a snoopy loop round the torn seal). __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk The Lot isn't the only place to dive: http://www.lulu.com/content/613554

May 3rd, 2006, 02:42 AM	#8 (permalink)
Devon Rob(Offline) Can´t remember-member Breakout Champion! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lyme Bay.Devon.UK formerly Hamburg, Ger. Posts: 316	Quote: (Originally Posted by Martin Burnard) Lesson learned here by me..... when its that cold don't dive! Enjoy the Baltic. Hi Martin, I sure will... my first ice dive in Hamburg. one guy dived in a semi dry! TWICE! They make `em hardy on the Baltic. Back to the thread... a chatostrophic failure in a drysuit zipper is pretty hard to achieve underwater unless your pumping it full of gas. __________________ this mail was checked for viruses,worms & bad breath

May 2nd, 2006, 10:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rob Dobson(Offline) Chillin' with the ninjas Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Oxford Posts: 533	I think that's why dives with that sort of deco obligation are generally done by people wearing undersuits that can keep you warm even when the suit floods. But you are talking about a serious flood here and at the worst possible time (after the obligation has been incurred). A zip might fail when you do it up or undo it but to randomly fail after an hour in the water seems unlikely... However - for arguements sake if you were somehow in really cold water with no thermal protection you would have no choice but to get out of the water as you would die of exposure before getting anywhere near completing your stops. Depending on the surface cover you had the immediate ascent is not necessarily fatal - remember Mark Andrews had an uncontrolled ascent from some incredible depth once (like 270m or something crazy like that) and survived without so much as a skin bend; but then he was able to jump back in and do 10hrs of deco at 30m. In your scenario you'd have to get dry and changed and back in the water in a few minutes and that's a big ask. Most skippers need more time than that to get you out of the water...

May 2nd, 2006, 10:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
Martin Burnard(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 580	Lesson learned here by me..... whenits that cold don't dive! Enjoy the Baltic.

May 3rd, 2006, 01:19 AM	#6 (permalink)
Hybrid(Offline) New Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 54	That is a life and death situation, and needs to treated that way. What I would do is continue the deco, as long as I could, then surface, and slowly as possible, hopefully, someone will have something that you can get changed into and jump back in the water and continue decoing,(with someone) wait until a rescue chopper can come and airlift me to recompression chamber. Being hypothemic and bent would suck

May 3rd, 2006, 03:25 AM	#9 (permalink)
LCF(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 622	Quote: Very few people who die by sudden cold water immersion actually die from drowning or hypothermia and most actually die within a few metres of safety. Do you have a reference for this, because I've never heard it, and I'm an ER doc. I've had a drysuit flood in 46 degree water when a neck seal went. It took 30 minutes to get back to shore. I was cold, but I wasn't hypothermic to a serious degree, and I certainly wasn't dead. Two layers of 200g quilted Thinsulate can be amazingly insulating, even in cold water.

May 3rd, 2006, 10:08 AM	#10 (permalink)
davy (Online) DIveR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 274	Quote: (Originally Posted by Rob Dobson) A zip might fail when you do it up or undo it but to randomly fail after an hour in the water seems unlikely... dunno, 2 years ago my buddy blew his back zipper wide open 30mins into a dive. This was during summer and the north sea was 20 degrees warm so he kept diving however, getting back on the rocking boat was a real challenge looking like a Michelin man. We had to cut his dry suit at the feet to let the water out. Although I don't think a front zip is likely to fail during the dive... Last edited by davy; May 3rd, 2006 at 10:13 AM.