Cave diving in the USA!

gansell · July 21st, 2006, 01:56 PM

Just a thought from a non cave diver, I have noticed that although there is lots of information about Cave Diving in the USA in Florida, there is not a lot of information about Cave Diving elsewhere. Surely there are other Cave Systems in the USA that are dived, for example are there any 'sump' divers more akin to what we have in the UK, or are they all 'spring' divers?

lizardland · July 21st, 2006, 02:18 PM

There is a fair community of sump divers in the US. Like in the UK they tend to be cavers turned divers. Most diving tends to go on around the TAG region.

gansell · July 21st, 2006, 02:29 PM

Cheers for that, I was trying google and the TAG provided the required search string

OK, here a question then, seeing as DIR was designed to be the diving system that covers all circumstances, from recreational OW to Cave, etc. How would the DIR setup work for sump diving? After seeing Gavin Newmans recent Wookey DVD I can't see it working there - rubber knobs or not

GLOC · July 21st, 2006, 02:49 PM

There was a thread on this subject a little while ago where the differences between sump and cave diving where explored Cave diving (slightly different approach)

I too have seen Gavin's DVD about Wookey Hole and I don't think you can apply all of the DIR principles to sump diving but you can make diving safe which is the bottom line of DIR diving.

HTH

ppo2_diver · July 21st, 2006, 02:55 PM

There are many divable cave systems in the Ozark mountains in Missouri.

gansell · July 21st, 2006, 03:28 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by GLOC)

There was a thread on this subject a little while ago where the differences between sump and cave diving where explored Cave diving (slightly different approach)
HTH

Cheers for the link.

caverkevin · July 21st, 2006, 07:07 PM

If you were to head over to the deco stop and search NEST you could find some info and contact info for people that are applying DIR to sump diving. Never seen what they are doing myself, but hear they are fairly squared away. Also seen some footage from the guys in the Ozarks Cave Diving, where they were doing some sump style diving. I have been toying with my single tank rig for a nice little side-mount rig for diving harder and smaller sites.

Cheers!!

Kevin

lizardland · July 24th, 2006, 12:21 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by gansell)

How would the DIR setup work for sump diving? After seeing Gavin Newmans recent Wookey DVD I can't see it working there - rubber knobs or not

Put simply, it doesn't. A few years ago when he was over, George Irvine refused to dive in a fairly easy (by UK standards) Dales cave. That to me speaks volumes regarding the viability of DIR in sump conditions.

There are too many variables, sumps are too different. For anyone that hasn't either dived a UK style cave or done any caving it is hard to appreciate. In many cases, simply getting to the water is a major task.

In no real order, situations where DIR falls down in sumps:

- air sharing: in a narrow passage, you can't. I'm not talking about restrictions, I'm talking sustained difficult passage, like, say, Elm Hole in Wales. You need to be independant, you need to carry whatever gas YOU need for YOUR safety.

- buddy system: poor vis is often the normal situation from the outset. It isn't an "event", something that happens like a silt out, etc. You cannot communicate with another diver when you cannot even see the other diver. Sump divers, despite popular misinformation, aren't always diving alone but they do train to dive independantly. Pretty much, if you are in the water then you are looking out for yourself.

- equipment: it generally isn't viable to dive backmounts. Could be size of the passage, could be getting the kit to the water or it could be that a twinset is just too big. Sump divers do often dive cylinders as small as 1L. A manifold is just not realistic either when it comes to transporting bottles to or between sumps. Most divers dive sidemount.

These are just the three that spring to mind. There are many more. If every sump was the same then something like DIR would exist. But they aren't and it doesn't.

DIR does not work in every diving situation, accept it and get over it

Yes, that was a blatant taunt!

Cheers,

Stuart

caverkevin · July 24th, 2006, 03:15 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

Put simply, it doesn't. A few years ago when he was over, George Irvine refused to dive in a fairly easy (by UK standards) Dales cave. That to me speaks volumes regarding the viability of DIR in sump conditions.

HAHA!.....This is funny!! I though everyone knew GI3 only likes big Tallahassee power cave and BMC (big Mexican cave)

. I doubt Ressel would be big enough for George.

Well I don't know about all, y'all. I have myself a pretty slick little single rig with a 27 pioneer wing, SS plate and a big pro-14 that works awesome for sidemount. Add a couple standard stage bottles and off you go. Plan on checking out a couple nasty little silty tunnels this week. They look to be no-mount instead of side mount.

Oh well.....different jokes for different folks. It all about having fun and being safe!!

Cheers!!

Kevin

Rubis · July 24th, 2006, 03:52 PM

I agree, it does not work everywhere.

Last week-end we ended up with 2m less water in Tannerie and found ourselves with 30m of dry cave to pass before getting to the other side and find water again.
Luckily we had only double 12s, but it was a major PITA to crawl on our knees with them. I thought I would just abort the dive there. We sweated our a$$e$ off and Nick and caverkevin even moved the scooters in there. As caverkevin said previously we luckily had ADV14s. Luckily the passage was short. But if we had had sidemount, it would have been just perfect. Or even ... even independent doubles that we could just dissassemble and reassemble on the other side of the now dry sump !

We also have a cave next to our home, very very beautiful, but the first 200m in the dry cave are a major PITA, very dangerous, with repelling and slimy passages. I don't want to dive that cave again with doubles unless we can set up some safe way of pulling heavy gear over. Just to see caverkevin play the funambulist with double 12s on his back makes my skin crawl.

But it works great in resurgents. Personnally I am a lazy weenie diver, so the sumps are not for me. I rather just have a couple of good scooters and fly into the caves

July 21st, 2006, 01:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
gansell(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Coventry Posts: 28	Cave diving in the USA! Just a thought from a non cave diver, I have noticed that although there is lots of information about Cave Diving in the USA in Florida, there is not a lot of information about Cave Diving elsewhere. Surely there are other Cave Systems in the USA that are dived, for example are there any 'sump' divers more akin to what we have in the UK, or are they all 'spring' divers?

July 21st, 2006, 02:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
lizardland(Offline) LCS Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Evidently Chickentown Posts: 593	There is a fair community of sump divers in the US. Like in the UK they tend to be cavers turned divers. Most diving tends to go on around the TAG region. __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk The Lot isn't the only place to dive: http://www.lulu.com/content/613554

July 21st, 2006, 02:49 PM	#4 (permalink)
GLOC (Online) Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Fleet, Hants Posts: 1,963	There was a thread on this subject a little while ago where the differences between sump and cave diving where explored Cave diving (slightly different approach) I too have seen Gavin's DVD about Wookey Hole and I don't think you can apply all of the DIR principles to sump diving but you can make diving safe which is the bottom line of DIR diving. HTH __________________ Gareth Images of Life Photography DIR Team Foxturd Travels Underwater and Further Afar If you don't have the time to do something right, where are you going to find the time to fix it? - Stephen King

July 21st, 2006, 02:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
ppo2_diver (Online) DIR Practitioner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Naperville, IL USA (Chicago Suburb) Posts: 105	RE: Caves in the US There are many divable cave systems in the Ozark mountains in Missouri. __________________ Duane A. Johnson Precision Diving

July 24th, 2006, 12:21 AM	#8 (permalink)
lizardland(Offline) LCS Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Evidently Chickentown Posts: 593	Quote: (Originally Posted by gansell) How would the DIR setup work for sump diving? After seeing Gavin Newmans recent Wookey DVD I can't see it working there - rubber knobs or not Put simply, it doesn't. A few years ago when he was over, George Irvine refused to dive in a fairly easy (by UK standards) Dales cave. That to me speaks volumes regarding the viability of DIR in sump conditions. There are too many variables, sumps are too different. For anyone that hasn't either dived a UK style cave or done any caving it is hard to appreciate. In many cases, simply getting to the water is a major task. In no real order, situations where DIR falls down in sumps: - air sharing: in a narrow passage, you can't. I'm not talking about restrictions, I'm talking sustained difficult passage, like, say, Elm Hole in Wales. You need to be independant, you need to carry whatever gas YOU need for YOUR safety. - buddy system: poor vis is often the normal situation from the outset. It isn't an "event", something that happens like a silt out, etc. You cannot communicate with another diver when you cannot even see the other diver. Sump divers, despite popular misinformation, aren't always diving alone but they do train to dive independantly. Pretty much, if you are in the water then you are looking out for yourself. - equipment: it generally isn't viable to dive backmounts. Could be size of the passage, could be getting the kit to the water or it could be that a twinset is just too big. Sump divers do often dive cylinders as small as 1L. A manifold is just not realistic either when it comes to transporting bottles to or between sumps. Most divers dive sidemount. These are just the three that spring to mind. There are many more. If every sump was the same then something like DIR would exist. But they aren't and it doesn't. DIR does not work in every diving situation, accept it and get over it Yes, that was a blatant taunt! Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk The Lot isn't the only place to dive: http://www.lulu.com/content/613554

July 21st, 2006, 02:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
gansell(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Coventry Posts: 28	Cheers for that, I was trying google and the TAG provided the required search string OK, here a question then, seeing as DIR was designed to be the diving system that covers all circumstances, from recreational OW to Cave, etc. How would the DIR setup work for sump diving? After seeing Gavin Newmans recent Wookey DVD I can't see it working there - rubber knobs or not

July 21st, 2006, 03:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
gansell(Offline) New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Coventry Posts: 28	Quote: (Originally Posted by GLOC) There was a thread on this subject a little while ago where the differences between sump and cave diving where explored Cave diving (slightly different approach) HTH Cheers for the link.

July 21st, 2006, 07:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
caverkevin (Online) Doing It Caverkevin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: North Kackilackie Posts: 361	If you were to head over to the deco stop and search NEST you could find some info and contact info for people that are applying DIR to sump diving. Never seen what they are doing myself, but hear they are fairly squared away. Also seen some footage from the guys in the Ozarks Cave Diving, where they were doing some sump style diving. I have been toying with my single tank rig for a nice little side-mount rig for diving harder and smaller sites. Cheers!! Kevin

July 24th, 2006, 03:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
caverkevin (Online) Doing It Caverkevin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: North Kackilackie Posts: 361	Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) Put simply, it doesn't. A few years ago when he was over, George Irvine refused to dive in a fairly easy (by UK standards) Dales cave. That to me speaks volumes regarding the viability of DIR in sump conditions. HAHA!.....This is funny!! I though everyone knew GI3 only likes big Tallahassee power cave and BMC (big Mexican cave) . I doubt Ressel would be big enough for George. Well I don't know about all, y'all. I have myself a pretty slick little single rig with a 27 pioneer wing, SS plate and a big pro-14 that works awesome for sidemount. Add a couple standard stage bottles and off you go. Plan on checking out a couple nasty little silty tunnels this week. They look to be no-mount instead of side mount. Oh well.....different jokes for different folks. It all about having fun and being safe!! Cheers!! Kevin

July 24th, 2006, 03:52 PM	#10 (permalink)
Rubis(Offline) cave deprived and Kissed Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Broadway, (lost in Central NC, USA far far way from Caves SIGH !!!) Posts: 275	I agree, it does not work everywhere. Last week-end we ended up with 2m less water in Tannerie and found ourselves with 30m of dry cave to pass before getting to the other side and find water again. Luckily we had only double 12s, but it was a major PITA to crawl on our knees with them. I thought I would just abort the dive there. We sweated our a$$e$ off and Nick and caverkevin even moved the scooters in there. As caverkevin said previously we luckily had ADV14s. Luckily the passage was short. But if we had had sidemount, it would have been just perfect. Or even ... even independent doubles that we could just dissassemble and reassemble on the other side of the now dry sump ! We also have a cave next to our home, very very beautiful, but the first 200m in the dry cave are a major PITA, very dangerous, with repelling and slimy passages. I don't want to dive that cave again with doubles unless we can set up some safe way of pulling heavy gear over. Just to see caverkevin play the funambulist with double 12s on his back makes my skin crawl. But it works great in resurgents. Personnally I am a lazy weenie diver, so the sumps are not for me. I rather just have a couple of good scooters and fly into the caves