Line Arrows

cgrady · July 6th, 2006, 07:03 PM

Do DIR teach that a directional line marker should be placed to mark the exit as per the route you took in, rather than closest direct exit?

I read on another board that some have been taught that it should mark the "Closest DIRECT exit" but can't see how this makes sense - how can you know you are going to be able to take an 'unknown' closer exit.

Joe Hesketh · July 6th, 2006, 08:01 PM

We were taught the following (I hope I remembered correctly).

A line arrow should mark the nearest exit yes. But if you are placing markers on a dive then your choice has to both (i) mark your exit, but also (ii) not alter the overall navigation of the system. So, for example if you come across an arrow that points away from your exit, then beyond that arrow it would alter the overall navigation (and also be selfish) for you to place a line arrow back to your particular exit. In that instance you’d place a non-directional marker on the exit side of the change of direction which fulfils both criteria.

Conversely, if the line you’re on doesn’t have any arrows marking an exit which may be closer than yours, then whether you know that at the time or not, it doesn’t alter the system’s navigation to keep arrow-marking your exit.

In terms of taking an ‘unknown’ exit, of course the answer is you shouldn’t other than as a last resort. But you may be diving from that other entrance (in which case you’d be asking yourself the same question about those arrows pointing to the first exit…).

Joe

diver42 · July 7th, 2006, 02:21 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by cgrady)

Do DIR teach that a directional line marker should be placed to mark the exit as per the route you took in, rather than closest direct exit?

I read on another board that some have been taught that it should mark the "Closest DIRECT exit" but can't see how this makes sense - how can you know you are going to be able to take an 'unknown' closer exit.

As another poster pointed out, we typically only use line arrows when their use will not alter the general navigation of the cave. This tends to mean using them to mark jumps. It would be silly to place an arrow in a direction other than your exit. If this would change the general navigation of the cave, use a non-directional marker. The position of the marker in relation to another object (usually an arrow) dictates the exit direction.

I learned that "permanent" line arrows point to the closest breathable air, which means that they sometimes point to air domes. This is not a universally held belief. There are some who, never having seen arrows pointing to air domes, do not believe it. But I have seen it, as have numerous others who dive in Mexico.

The idea that line arrows point to the closest exit raises a seemingly obvious problem: nobody has any idea what "closest" means. Water depth, low viz, tight cave, and a host of other issues can alter the "closest" exit.

*peter_steinhoff* · July 7th, 2006, 11:58 AM

Just to clarify; you should really use non-directional markers (cookies) for everything except emergency situations like lost buddy. The reason behind this is of course to not confuse navigation for other teams. That is also what we teach in GUE even if there has been deviations in the past.

Jumps are marked with cookies on your exit side (may not be the closest route out) for the purpose of going back the same way you came in.

Best,
Peter

rjack · July 7th, 2006, 11:19 PM

Peter,
The current cave1 standards require (min) 3 arrows and 2 cookies. Is this changing to require more cookies? "For everything" suggests that 2 coookies won't be enough (and 3 arrows is too many).

Richard

diver42 · July 8th, 2006, 12:00 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff)

Just to clarify; you should really use non-directional markers (cookies) for everything except emergency situations like lost buddy. The reason behind this is of course to not confuse navigation for other teams. That is also what we teach in GUE even if there has been deviations in the past.

What about unmarked jumps? Leaving the line to investigate something (e.g. an air dome or cave without permanent line)?

Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack)

The current cave1 standards require (min) 3 arrows and 2 cookies. Is this changing to require more cookies? "For everything" suggests that 2 coookies won't be enough (and 3 arrows is too many).

Isn't that a training standard? If I remember correctly, navigation is limited in Cave 1, requireing fewer markers.

I tend to take around 4 arrows and 6 cookies routinely. Though I have run out on long dives.

*peter_steinhoff* · July 8th, 2006, 02:18 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack)

Peter,
The current cave1 standards require (min) 3 arrows and 2 cookies. Is this changing to require more cookies? "For everything" suggests that 2 coookies won't be enough (and 3 arrows is too many).

Richard

Cave 1 is mainline penetration only so you don't do any jumps and don't need to mark anything. You can do a gap when you cross a sinkhole but gaps don't require any marking, just a spool. In some training locations you are also allowed to navigate one T but that has not been included in the standards yet.

Cave 1 is where you learn the fundamentals of cave diving and Cave 2 is where you can really start applying your knowledge. So at the Cave 2 level you start doing jumps, traverses, circuits etc and are required to mark more.

Best,
Peter

*peter_steinhoff* · July 8th, 2006, 02:55 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by diver42)

What about unmarked jumps? Leaving the line to investigate something (e.g. an air dome or cave without permanent line)?

If you need to search off the mainline, for instance looking for your lost buddy, standard procedure would be to put a line arrow on the mainline and hook your spool to the arrow.

For an unmarked jump you could hook the spool to the main line and use a cookie to indicate your exit direction or you could use a line arrow. To my knowledge the preferred method is not mentioned in GUE's training standards.

However the general consensus is that we use with cookies when ever possible to avoid conflicting directional information and line arrows in all other cases.

Best,
Peter

diver42 · July 8th, 2006, 06:42 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff)

If you need to search off the mainline, for instance looking for your lost buddy, standard procedure would be to put a line arrow on the mainline and hook your spool to the arrow.

For an unmarked jump you could hook the spool to the main line and use a cookie to indicate your exit direction or you could use a line arrow. To my knowledge the preferred method is not mentioned in GUE's training standards.

However the general consensus is that we use with cookies when ever possible to avoid conflicting directional information and line arrows in all other cases.

That sounds right, though I'm not sure how an unmarked jump is any different than searching off the permanent line.

***Bob Cooper*** · July 8th, 2006, 02:34 PM

Are the circular cookies the preferred method these days? (like the ones they use in Mexico) as a non-directional marker.

When I did my Cave 2, we used clothes pins. Have the standards changed now?

July 6th, 2006, 07:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
cgrady(Offline) New Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: USA Posts: 6	Line Arrows Do DIR teach that a directional line marker should be placed to mark the exit as per the route you took in, rather than closest direct exit? I read on another board that some have been taught that it should mark the "Closest DIRECT exit" but can't see how this makes sense - how can you know you are going to be able to take an 'unknown' closer exit.

July 7th, 2006, 11:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
peter_steinhoff(Offline) Instructor candidate Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sweden & Florida Posts: 205	Just to clarify; you should really use non-directional markers (cookies) for everything except emergency situations like lost buddy. The reason behind this is of course to not confuse navigation for other teams. That is also what we teach in GUE even if there has been deviations in the past. Jumps are marked with cookies on your exit side (may not be the closest route out) for the purpose of going back the same way you came in. Best, Peter __________________ Peter Steinhoff GUE DIR-F, Tech1, Tech2, Cave1, Cave2, Cave3, RB80-1&2, DIR-F/Cave Instructor Candidate. NAUI Tec Instructor (Trimix, Technical DPV, Technical Wreck Penenetration etc) WKPP Support Diver, Halcyon Product Development Team, Gavinscooter Representative. Various IANTD, NSS-CDS, NACD, PADI & NAUI. ---------------------------------------------- http://dir-diver.com http://peter.steinhoff.se (swedish only)

July 8th, 2006, 02:18 AM	#7 (permalink)
peter_steinhoff(Offline) Instructor candidate Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sweden & Florida Posts: 205	Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack) Peter, The current cave1 standards require (min) 3 arrows and 2 cookies. Is this changing to require more cookies? "For everything" suggests that 2 coookies won't be enough (and 3 arrows is too many). Richard Cave 1 is mainline penetration only so you don't do any jumps and don't need to mark anything. You can do a gap when you cross a sinkhole but gaps don't require any marking, just a spool. In some training locations you are also allowed to navigate one T but that has not been included in the standards yet. Cave 1 is where you learn the fundamentals of cave diving and Cave 2 is where you can really start applying your knowledge. So at the Cave 2 level you start doing jumps, traverses, circuits etc and are required to mark more. Best, Peter __________________ Peter Steinhoff GUE DIR-F, Tech1, Tech2, Cave1, Cave2, Cave3, RB80-1&2, DIR-F/Cave Instructor Candidate. NAUI Tec Instructor (Trimix, Technical DPV, Technical Wreck Penenetration etc) WKPP Support Diver, Halcyon Product Development Team, Gavinscooter Representative. Various IANTD, NSS-CDS, NACD, PADI & NAUI. ---------------------------------------------- http://dir-diver.com http://peter.steinhoff.se (swedish only)

July 8th, 2006, 02:55 AM	#8 (permalink)
peter_steinhoff(Offline) Instructor candidate Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sweden & Florida Posts: 205	Quote: (Originally Posted by diver42) What about unmarked jumps? Leaving the line to investigate something (e.g. an air dome or cave without permanent line)? If you need to search off the mainline, for instance looking for your lost buddy, standard procedure would be to put a line arrow on the mainline and hook your spool to the arrow. For an unmarked jump you could hook the spool to the main line and use a cookie to indicate your exit direction or you could use a line arrow. To my knowledge the preferred method is not mentioned in GUE's training standards. However the general consensus is that we use with cookies when ever possible to avoid conflicting directional information and line arrows in all other cases. Best, Peter __________________ Peter Steinhoff GUE DIR-F, Tech1, Tech2, Cave1, Cave2, Cave3, RB80-1&2, DIR-F/Cave Instructor Candidate. NAUI Tec Instructor (Trimix, Technical DPV, Technical Wreck Penenetration etc) WKPP Support Diver, Halcyon Product Development Team, Gavinscooter Representative. Various IANTD, NSS-CDS, NACD, PADI & NAUI. ---------------------------------------------- http://dir-diver.com http://peter.steinhoff.se (swedish only)

July 6th, 2006, 08:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
Joe Hesketh(Offline) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 657	We were taught the following (I hope I remembered correctly). A line arrow should mark the nearest exit yes. But if you are placing markers on a dive then your choice has to both (i) mark your exit, but also (ii) not alter the overall navigation of the system. So, for example if you come across an arrow that points away from your exit, then beyond that arrow it would alter the overall navigation (and also be selfish) for you to place a line arrow back to your particular exit. In that instance you’d place a non-directional marker on the exit side of the change of direction which fulfils both criteria. Conversely, if the line you’re on doesn’t have any arrows marking an exit which may be closer than yours, then whether you know that at the time or not, it doesn’t alter the system’s navigation to keep arrow-marking your exit. In terms of taking an ‘unknown’ exit, of course the answer is you shouldn’t other than as a last resort. But you may be diving from that other entrance (in which case you’d be asking yourself the same question about those arrows pointing to the first exit…). Joe

July 7th, 2006, 02:21 AM	#3 (permalink)
diver42(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 107	Quote: (Originally Posted by cgrady) Do DIR teach that a directional line marker should be placed to mark the exit as per the route you took in, rather than closest direct exit? I read on another board that some have been taught that it should mark the "Closest DIRECT exit" but can't see how this makes sense - how can you know you are going to be able to take an 'unknown' closer exit. As another poster pointed out, we typically only use line arrows when their use will not alter the general navigation of the cave. This tends to mean using them to mark jumps. It would be silly to place an arrow in a direction other than your exit. If this would change the general navigation of the cave, use a non-directional marker. The position of the marker in relation to another object (usually an arrow) dictates the exit direction. I learned that "permanent" line arrows point to the closest breathable air, which means that they sometimes point to air domes. This is not a universally held belief. There are some who, never having seen arrows pointing to air domes, do not believe it. But I have seen it, as have numerous others who dive in Mexico. The idea that line arrows point to the closest exit raises a seemingly obvious problem: nobody has any idea what "closest" means. Water depth, low viz, tight cave, and a host of other issues can alter the "closest" exit.

July 7th, 2006, 11:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
rjack(Offline) wet behind the ears Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 861	Peter, The current cave1 standards require (min) 3 arrows and 2 cookies. Is this changing to require more cookies? "For everything" suggests that 2 coookies won't be enough (and 3 arrows is too many). Richard

July 8th, 2006, 12:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
diver42(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 107	Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff) Just to clarify; you should really use non-directional markers (cookies) for everything except emergency situations like lost buddy. The reason behind this is of course to not confuse navigation for other teams. That is also what we teach in GUE even if there has been deviations in the past. What about unmarked jumps? Leaving the line to investigate something (e.g. an air dome or cave without permanent line)? Quote: (Originally Posted by rjack) The current cave1 standards require (min) 3 arrows and 2 cookies. Is this changing to require more cookies? "For everything" suggests that 2 coookies won't be enough (and 3 arrows is too many). Isn't that a training standard? If I remember correctly, navigation is limited in Cave 1, requireing fewer markers. I tend to take around 4 arrows and 6 cookies routinely. Though I have run out on long dives.

July 8th, 2006, 06:42 AM	#9 (permalink)
diver42(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 107	Quote: (Originally Posted by peter_steinhoff) If you need to search off the mainline, for instance looking for your lost buddy, standard procedure would be to put a line arrow on the mainline and hook your spool to the arrow. For an unmarked jump you could hook the spool to the main line and use a cookie to indicate your exit direction or you could use a line arrow. To my knowledge the preferred method is not mentioned in GUE's training standards. However the general consensus is that we use with cookies when ever possible to avoid conflicting directional information and line arrows in all other cases. That sounds right, though I'm not sure how an unmarked jump is any different than searching off the permanent line.

July 8th, 2006, 02:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
*Bob Cooper*(Offline) Moderator - "Don't stop me now!" Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: South East London, UK Posts: 680	Are the circular cookies the preferred method these days? (like the ones they use in Mexico) as a non-directional marker. When I did my Cave 2, we used clothes pins. Have the standards changed now?