Cave diving (slightly different approach)

Marcin Kaluza · May 16th, 2006, 02:40 PM

For a reason which I’ll explain later I’ve decided to post a short introduction to a form of cave diving known as “sump diving”.

The first major difference between what DIR divers call “cave diving” and “sump diving” is access to water. When diving caves in Florida or Mexico you simply show up on the edge of the water, don your kit and off you go (as many of you will know). For serious cave explorers however the situation is slightly more complicated. When exploring caves in my homeland’s Tatra Mountains the first obstacle to overcome is the elevation of the cave entrance. It’s not unusual to be forced to climb considerable distance to reach it. This of course means that lightweight equipment is preferred to heavy one.
Once in the cave, explorers have to negotiate dry passages and it’s seldom a walk in a park. Dry cave passages tend to go in all 3 dimensions meaning that you often have to climb, abseil and traverse vertical walls. If it wasn’t enough cavers very often have to crawl through passages pushing their kit in front of them (to avoid the kit getting stuck behind thus blocking the exit route). To add insult to injury dry passages are seldom dry and very often you have to crawl through mud or tread through waist deep water.
In most cases cave expeditions are multi day affairs and all the kit and supplies have to be carried by expedition members.

This has some serious consequences when it comes to kit selection: helmets have to be worn at all times (to protect the user from heavy stuff falling on his head), head mounted lights are used to keep hands free for the rope-work. This also means that unless you’re a strong-man competition contender, single cylinders are used simply because twinsets would be impossible to transport. For the same reason valve protectors are the norm as cylinders usually get fair amount of bashing on the way down.
All this climbing means that cavers have to wear a harness and use standard issue carabineers (a.k.a. suicide clips in the diving industry). This harness is very often dual purpose and when it comes to diving sumps it’s used to attach bits and pieces of the diving kit.

The main reason to dive sumps is not the diving per se, but getting through to the other side to explore the cave further. Because sumps tend to be restricted in size and often very murky cavers developed some special techniques for getting through them: first of all they dive solo to minimise the risk because as they say one dead body is better than two, secondly in confined spaces and nil visibility communication would be impossible anyhow. This of course means that long hoses are simply not needed. Confines of the sumps also means that side-mounted, independent cylinders are used and they’re equipped with regulators that can be fed from both sides (Poseidon Cyclone etc).
In extreme cases “no-mount” system is used to get through a sump which is when a diver pushes his cylinder in front of him crawling on a sump bed.

I hope I’ve given you enough insight by now to decide whether cave exploration is for you. Rewards are enormous: you have a chance to put your foot where no-one else have ever been and that’s the primary reason that keeps many cavers going. It also means that unlike “spring diving” money means nothing in this business. No amount of scooters or rebreathers will get you anywhere in cave exploration.
One point that’s also worth mentioning is that for one diving team member there are often several others carrying his kit to the sump. Now try to convince someone to carry your twinset

I’m not aware of cave training standards in all countries, but in my homeland it takes two years to get the dry caving ticket which is a must if you want to get anywhere. The training involves at least two boot camps (winter and summer), good amount of climbing techniques and regular biweekly outings to the mountains. You also have to participate in at least 5 summer and 3 winter cave expeditions.

Caving and sump diving are not for me. I’m diving to enjoy the vista, not to push the boundaries but I have a lot of friends who enjoy this activity. I respect their kit choices as they operate in very special environment that is alien for most divers and it would be very arrogant to try to impose anything on people who have often years of cave exploration and multitude of discoveries behind them. If you’d like to have a look at what’s involved in cave exploration a page of a late friend, Wlodek Szymanowski, can be found at http://dnh.e-wro.net/

Sadly it seems that some people “know better” and to illustrate all the things that cave explorers do wrong, some pictures have been stolen and put on www.frogkick.nl . I don’t know any of the owners of this website, but I wish they had done half the discoveries that some of the people on the DIW photographs have. Maybe then it wouldn’t be so damned stupid.

Best Regards

*JohnKendall* · May 16th, 2006, 03:07 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marcin Kaluza)

It also means that unlike “spring diving” money means nothing in this business. No amount of scooters or rebreathers will get you anywhere in cave exploration.
One point that’s also worth mentioning is that for one diving team member there are often several others carrying his kit to the sump. Now try to convince someone to carry your twinset

Quote:

I respect their kit choices as they operate in very special environment that is alien for most divers and it would be very arrogant to try to impose anything on people who have often years of cave exploration and multitude of discoveries behind them. If you’d like to have a look at what’s involved in cave exploration a page of a late friend, Wlodek Szymanowski, can be found at http://dnh.e-wro.net/

Sadly it seems that some people “know better” and to illustrate all the things that cave explorers do wrong, some pictures have been stolen and put on www.frogkick.nl . I don’t know any of the owners of this website, but I wish they had done half the discoveries that some of the people on the DIW photographs have. Maybe then it wouldn’t be so damned stupid.

Hi Marcin,

Although this is an interesting insight into activities that some people do in caves, I don't quite understand your reasoning for posting it. You say that you don't do that kind of diving yourself, and you procede to take potshots at the DIR way of doing things. I'd be interested in knowing why.

J

Marcin Kaluza · May 16th, 2006, 03:22 PM

Hi John,

Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall)

Although this is an interesting insight into activities that some people do in caves, I don't quite understand your reasoning for posting it. You say that you don't do that kind of diving yourself, and you procede to take potshots at the DIR way of doing things. I'd be interested in knowing why.

I accept (and try to follow) 99% of waht DIR diving stands for in terms of equipment selection, teamwork and fitness. I do not accept attitude of some DIR divers towards people diving in a different way. Some of the photos on frogkick.nl have been stolen from my friend's websites and taken out of context (which I'm trying to explain here). I think it'd benefit many of us if instead of branding some people DIW we tried to understand the conditions in which they operate.
My very selfish reason for doing it is simple: because of Hogarthian rig I use I often get labeled as a "DIR diver" and that, among majority of divers sadly has negative meaning. This is partly due to branding everything non DIR as DIW.

I hope I managed to explain something.

Best Regards

*Clare Gledhill* · May 16th, 2006, 03:35 PM

If you, or your friend, are unhappy with postings on other websites, please bring them to the attention of that website. I am not aware of any malicious or judgemental postings on here about sump diving.

Of course cave diving is different dependant on environment. Sea diving is too, I would not consider a 3mm shortie, a single cylinder and no light to be suitable for a deep dive off the UK but would be content to use it off a tropical reef.

The UK based CDG use the techniques which you set out, but recognise that, for most of them, the diving is a means of getting to more dry sections of cave. I have a great deal of respect for their inventiveness and tenacity - although would not under any circumstances wish to dive like that - not because I believe that a system designed for back mountable caves could do it better, but because I am a girl and I don't look good in wellies

smekke · May 16th, 2006, 04:29 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marcin Kaluza)

I often get labeled as a "DIR diver" and that, among majority of divers sadly has negative meaning. This is partly due to branding everything non DIR as DIW.

FWIW,I can't agree more

*peter_steinhoff* · May 18th, 2006, 02:34 PM

Good post Marcin.

Cave diving have had two parallell routes of development. Sump diving originated out of Europe with it's base in dry caving and cave diving that originated out of the US with it's base in scuba diving.

It's not difficult to understand why two different approaches optimized for their particular environment render different types of equipment choices. I think you hit the important points in your post Marcin.

Reading George Irvine's original DIR article it is also clear that "Right" refers to doing things properly, use good equipment and taking it seriously. Maybe it was an unfourtunate choice of words since a lot of people, often not interrested in the original thoughts anyway, automatically assumes that everybody else must be doing it "Wrong".

Personally I could not care less about the right/wrong debate as it is misdirected and not constructive - the DIR system is only for those that wants it.

Best,
Peter

caverkevin · June 12th, 2006, 10:32 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marcin Kaluza)

I hope I’ve given you enough insight by now to decide whether cave exploration is for you. Rewards are enormous: you have a chance to put your foot where no-one else have ever been and that’s the primary reason that keeps many cavers going. It also means that unlike “spring diving” money means nothing in this business. No amount of scooters or rebreathers will get you anywhere in cave exploration.
One point that’s also worth mentioning is that for one diving team member there are often several others carrying his kit to the sump. Now try to convince someone to carry your twinset

I sherpa my buddies doubles through the dry cave to the water with a

Then remove my helmet and helmet mounted lights before going diving.

I am sure in 'sump' diving there is a good and not so good way of doing things. Sounds like pulling your gear behind you is not DIR cave crawling. One day I may venture into dry caving with a serious passion. Right now, short sections of dry cave are just a obstacle to get to a nice cave dive.

Thank you for the insight to dry caving.

Cheers!!

Kevin

May 16th, 2006, 02:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Marcin Kaluza(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK, Bracknell Posts: 30	Cave diving (slightly different approach) For a reason which I’ll explain later I’ve decided to post a short introduction to a form of cave diving known as “sump diving”. The first major difference between what DIR divers call “cave diving” and “sump diving” is access to water. When diving caves in Florida or Mexico you simply show up on the edge of the water, don your kit and off you go (as many of you will know). For serious cave explorers however the situation is slightly more complicated. When exploring caves in my homeland’s Tatra Mountains the first obstacle to overcome is the elevation of the cave entrance. It’s not unusual to be forced to climb considerable distance to reach it. This of course means that lightweight equipment is preferred to heavy one. Once in the cave, explorers have to negotiate dry passages and it’s seldom a walk in a park. Dry cave passages tend to go in all 3 dimensions meaning that you often have to climb, abseil and traverse vertical walls. If it wasn’t enough cavers very often have to crawl through passages pushing their kit in front of them (to avoid the kit getting stuck behind thus blocking the exit route). To add insult to injury dry passages are seldom dry and very often you have to crawl through mud or tread through waist deep water. In most cases cave expeditions are multi day affairs and all the kit and supplies have to be carried by expedition members. This has some serious consequences when it comes to kit selection: helmets have to be worn at all times (to protect the user from heavy stuff falling on his head), head mounted lights are used to keep hands free for the rope-work. This also means that unless you’re a strong-man competition contender, single cylinders are used simply because twinsets would be impossible to transport. For the same reason valve protectors are the norm as cylinders usually get fair amount of bashing on the way down. All this climbing means that cavers have to wear a harness and use standard issue carabineers (a.k.a. suicide clips in the diving industry). This harness is very often dual purpose and when it comes to diving sumps it’s used to attach bits and pieces of the diving kit. The main reason to dive sumps is not the diving per se, but getting through to the other side to explore the cave further. Because sumps tend to be restricted in size and often very murky cavers developed some special techniques for getting through them: first of all they dive solo to minimise the risk because as they say one dead body is better than two, secondly in confined spaces and nil visibility communication would be impossible anyhow. This of course means that long hoses are simply not needed. Confines of the sumps also means that side-mounted, independent cylinders are used and they’re equipped with regulators that can be fed from both sides (Poseidon Cyclone etc). In extreme cases “no-mount” system is used to get through a sump which is when a diver pushes his cylinder in front of him crawling on a sump bed. I hope I’ve given you enough insight by now to decide whether cave exploration is for you. Rewards are enormous: you have a chance to put your foot where no-one else have ever been and that’s the primary reason that keeps many cavers going. It also means that unlike “spring diving” money means nothing in this business. No amount of scooters or rebreathers will get you anywhere in cave exploration. One point that’s also worth mentioning is that for one diving team member there are often several others carrying his kit to the sump. Now try to convince someone to carry your twinset I’m not aware of cave training standards in all countries, but in my homeland it takes two years to get the dry caving ticket which is a must if you want to get anywhere. The training involves at least two boot camps (winter and summer), good amount of climbing techniques and regular biweekly outings to the mountains. You also have to participate in at least 5 summer and 3 winter cave expeditions. Caving and sump diving are not for me. I’m diving to enjoy the vista, not to push the boundaries but I have a lot of friends who enjoy this activity. I respect their kit choices as they operate in very special environment that is alien for most divers and it would be very arrogant to try to impose anything on people who have often years of cave exploration and multitude of discoveries behind them. If you’d like to have a look at what’s involved in cave exploration a page of a late friend, Wlodek Szymanowski, can be found at http://dnh.e-wro.net/ Sadly it seems that some people “know better” and to illustrate all the things that cave explorers do wrong, some pictures have been stolen and put on www.frogkick.nl . I don’t know any of the owners of this website, but I wish they had done half the discoveries that some of the people on the DIW photographs have. Maybe then it wouldn’t be so damned stupid. Best Regards __________________ Marcin HLPlanner - free VPM-B based decompression software

May 16th, 2006, 03:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
JohnKendall(Offline) GUE Instructor/DIRX Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,099	Quote: (Originally Posted by Marcin Kaluza) It also means that unlike “spring diving” money means nothing in this business. No amount of scooters or rebreathers will get you anywhere in cave exploration. One point that’s also worth mentioning is that for one diving team member there are often several others carrying his kit to the sump. Now try to convince someone to carry your twinset Quote: I respect their kit choices as they operate in very special environment that is alien for most divers and it would be very arrogant to try to impose anything on people who have often years of cave exploration and multitude of discoveries behind them. If you’d like to have a look at what’s involved in cave exploration a page of a late friend, Wlodek Szymanowski, can be found at http://dnh.e-wro.net/ Sadly it seems that some people “know better” and to illustrate all the things that cave explorers do wrong, some pictures have been stolen and put on www.frogkick.nl . I don’t know any of the owners of this website, but I wish they had done half the discoveries that some of the people on the DIW photographs have. Maybe then it wouldn’t be so damned stupid. Hi Marcin, Although this is an interesting insight into activities that some people do in caves, I don't quite understand your reasoning for posting it. You say that you don't do that kind of diving yourself, and you procede to take potshots at the DIR way of doing things. I'd be interested in knowing why. J __________________ John Kendall http://www.guetraining.com/ GUE Instruction, Santi and Halcyon Equipment NEW - Online Santi Shop

May 16th, 2006, 03:22 PM	#3 (permalink)
Marcin Kaluza(Offline) New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK, Bracknell Posts: 30	Hi John, Quote: (Originally Posted by JohnKendall) Although this is an interesting insight into activities that some people do in caves, I don't quite understand your reasoning for posting it. You say that you don't do that kind of diving yourself, and you procede to take potshots at the DIR way of doing things. I'd be interested in knowing why. I accept (and try to follow) 99% of waht DIR diving stands for in terms of equipment selection, teamwork and fitness. I do not accept attitude of some DIR divers towards people diving in a different way. Some of the photos on frogkick.nl have been stolen from my friend's websites and taken out of context (which I'm trying to explain here). I think it'd benefit many of us if instead of branding some people DIW we tried to understand the conditions in which they operate. My very selfish reason for doing it is simple: because of Hogarthian rig I use I often get labeled as a "DIR diver" and that, among majority of divers sadly has negative meaning. This is partly due to branding everything non DIR as DIW. I hope I managed to explain something. Best Regards __________________ Marcin HLPlanner - free VPM-B based decompression software

May 16th, 2006, 03:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
Clare Gledhill (Online) GUE Instructor Site Admin Pacman Champion! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,540	If you, or your friend, are unhappy with postings on other websites, please bring them to the attention of that website. I am not aware of any malicious or judgemental postings on here about sump diving. Of course cave diving is different dependant on environment. Sea diving is too, I would not consider a 3mm shortie, a single cylinder and no light to be suitable for a deep dive off the UK but would be content to use it off a tropical reef. The UK based CDG use the techniques which you set out, but recognise that, for most of them, the diving is a means of getting to more dry sections of cave. I have a great deal of respect for their inventiveness and tenacity - although would not under any circumstances wish to dive like that - not because I believe that a system designed for back mountable caves could do it better, but because I am a girl and I don't look good in wellies __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in DIR dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.dirdiver.co.uk

May 18th, 2006, 02:34 PM	#6 (permalink)
peter_steinhoff(Offline) Instructor candidate Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sweden & Florida Posts: 205	Good post Marcin. Cave diving have had two parallell routes of development. Sump diving originated out of Europe with it's base in dry caving and cave diving that originated out of the US with it's base in scuba diving. It's not difficult to understand why two different approaches optimized for their particular environment render different types of equipment choices. I think you hit the important points in your post Marcin. Reading George Irvine's original DIR article it is also clear that "Right" refers to doing things properly, use good equipment and taking it seriously. Maybe it was an unfourtunate choice of words since a lot of people, often not interrested in the original thoughts anyway, automatically assumes that everybody else must be doing it "Wrong". Personally I could not care less about the right/wrong debate as it is misdirected and not constructive - the DIR system is only for those that wants it. Best, Peter __________________ Peter Steinhoff GUE DIR-F, Tech1, Tech2, Cave1, Cave2, Cave3, RB80-1&2, DIR-F/Cave Instructor Candidate. NAUI Tec Instructor (Trimix, Technical DPV, Technical Wreck Penenetration etc) WKPP Support Diver, Halcyon Product Development Team, Gavinscooter Representative. Various IANTD, NSS-CDS, NACD, PADI & NAUI. ---------------------------------------------- http://dir-diver.com http://peter.steinhoff.se (swedish only)

May 16th, 2006, 04:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
smekke (Online) New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 16	Quote: (Originally Posted by Marcin Kaluza) I often get labeled as a "DIR diver" and that, among majority of divers sadly has negative meaning. This is partly due to branding everything non DIR as DIW. FWIW,I can't agree more

June 12th, 2006, 10:32 AM	#7 (permalink)
caverkevin (Online) Doing It Caverkevin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: North Kackilackie Posts: 361	Quote: (Originally Posted by Marcin Kaluza) I hope I’ve given you enough insight by now to decide whether cave exploration is for you. Rewards are enormous: you have a chance to put your foot where no-one else have ever been and that’s the primary reason that keeps many cavers going. It also means that unlike “spring diving” money means nothing in this business. No amount of scooters or rebreathers will get you anywhere in cave exploration. One point that’s also worth mentioning is that for one diving team member there are often several others carrying his kit to the sump. Now try to convince someone to carry your twinset I sherpa my buddies doubles through the dry cave to the water with a Then remove my helmet and helmet mounted lights before going diving. I am sure in 'sump' diving there is a good and not so good way of doing things. Sounds like pulling your gear behind you is not DIR cave crawling. One day I may venture into dry caving with a serious passion. Right now, short sections of dry cave are just a obstacle to get to a nice cave dive. Thank you for the insight to dry caving. Cheers!! Kevin