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*Hassan Adly* · April 26th, 2008, 10:42 AM

Hello,

To be honest I don't like how this thread has developed at all. The thread starter made some comments in celebration of ANZAC day, an important commemorative day for Australians and New Zealanders, with some (perhaps misguided) statements glorifying Australia's role in the second world war. I don't think he deserved the reaction he got.

More importantly, as an Australian I am insulted that a thread with the title "on this ANZAC day" ended up serving as a soapbox for couch historians. This irreverent bickering only serves to marginalise those who are the actual theme of the thread - the ANZACs and their struggle. As Kevrumbo said: It is their day of honor - not yours!

I appreciate Kevrumbo's sentiments regarding ANZAC troops, although I would kindly suggest reading a bit more about the history of the famed Australia & New Zealand Army Corps, especially their First World War history, and furthermore about what are known as ANZAC spirit and the ANZAC legend. Knowledge of these subjects will help understand what ANZAC day is all about, and what it means to Australians and New Zealanders.

Garf, thanks for the impromptu history lesson, but I find it necessary to make some comments and corrections. I still think it inappropriate to discuss it here - and furthermore it is long, so I will print it in small text:

Regarding Allied losses at Gallipoli: Your numbers are incorrect (you were probably referring to the injured casualty figures). Allied killed at gallipoli: Britain 21255, France 10000, Australia 7594, NZ 2701, India 1358, Newfoundland 49. Does this somehow prove your point? No, it only gives the impression that you don't care enough about this important historical event to get your figures straight.

Regarding WWII: 1942 saw the invasion of New Guinea, which was Australian territory at the time. Japanese bombing of the Australian mainland caused large scale destruction and took many lives, especially the massive bombardment of Darwin. The Japanese push into Fiji and the Solomon Islands put Australia at risk of strategic isolation from the USA, effectively its only source of military support at the time. The Japanese government publicly threatened an invasion of Australia. Perhaps today's historians (even real ones) may doubt that the Japanese intended to invade; I for one can only wonder what Australians must have felt or thought at the time.

Regarding the "turning of the tide": If we work hard enough nitpicking who is responsible for reversing the Japanese advance in WWII, I'll bet we could narrow it down to one person, or maybe even one person's pet goldfish. War is vastly more complex than that. For example: The battle of the coral sea prevented the Japanese capture of Port Moresby in New Guinea (the first time an invading Japanese force had been defeated). This caused the Japanese to attempt capture of Port Moresby overland, which provided enough time for elite Australian infantry to arrive and wage the Kokoda Track campaign, the battle of Isurava, and the battle of Milne bay. All this kept a huge number of Japanese forces busy and hence was a huge relief to US forces at Guadalcanal. So, who is responsible for the US victory at Guadalcanal? I think that the complexity of how the war unfolded makes the question irrelevant.

Base 615, The theme of this thread is ANZAC day, which commemorates the struggles and sacrifices of ANZAC soldiers in the World Wars 1 & 2. It doesn't glorify war - it honors those who fought, for whatever reason, and commemorates the meaning of their battles in Australian and NZ history. As for your reference to Iraqi civilians, it is totally inappropriate. Current tragedies such as the ongoing war in Iraq do not reduce the honor earned by the ANZACs, and bringing them up in this context can be regarded as disrespect towards those who deserve only respect.

Thanks for your attention,
Hassan

April 26th, 2008, 10:42 AM	#8 (permalink)
Hassan Adly(Offline) GUE Instructor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Red Sea Posts: 292	Hello, To be honest I don't like how this thread has developed at all. The thread starter made some comments in celebration of ANZAC day, an important commemorative day for Australians and New Zealanders, with some (perhaps misguided) statements glorifying Australia's role in the second world war. I don't think he deserved the reaction he got. More importantly, as an Australian I am insulted that a thread with the title "on this ANZAC day" ended up serving as a soapbox for couch historians. This irreverent bickering only serves to marginalise those who are the actual theme of the thread - the ANZACs and their struggle. As Kevrumbo said: It is their day of honor - not yours! I appreciate Kevrumbo's sentiments regarding ANZAC troops, although I would kindly suggest reading a bit more about the history of the famed Australia & New Zealand Army Corps, especially their First World War history, and furthermore about what are known as ANZAC spirit and the ANZAC legend. Knowledge of these subjects will help understand what ANZAC day is all about, and what it means to Australians and New Zealanders. Garf, thanks for the impromptu history lesson, but I find it necessary to make some comments and corrections. I still think it inappropriate to discuss it here - and furthermore it is long, so I will print it in small text: Regarding Allied losses at Gallipoli: Your numbers are incorrect (you were probably referring to the injured casualty figures). Allied killed at gallipoli: Britain 21255, France 10000, Australia 7594, NZ 2701, India 1358, Newfoundland 49. Does this somehow prove your point? No, it only gives the impression that you don't care enough about this important historical event to get your figures straight. Regarding WWII: 1942 saw the invasion of New Guinea, which was Australian territory at the time. Japanese bombing of the Australian mainland caused large scale destruction and took many lives, especially the massive bombardment of Darwin. The Japanese push into Fiji and the Solomon Islands put Australia at risk of strategic isolation from the USA, effectively its only source of military support at the time. The Japanese government publicly threatened an invasion of Australia. Perhaps today's historians (even real ones) may doubt that the Japanese intended to invade; I for one can only wonder what Australians must have felt or thought at the time. Regarding the "turning of the tide": If we work hard enough nitpicking who is responsible for reversing the Japanese advance in WWII, I'll bet we could narrow it down to one person, or maybe even one person's pet goldfish. War is vastly more complex than that. For example: The battle of the coral sea prevented the Japanese capture of Port Moresby in New Guinea (the first time an invading Japanese force had been defeated). This caused the Japanese to attempt capture of Port Moresby overland, which provided enough time for elite Australian infantry to arrive and wage the Kokoda Track campaign, the battle of Isurava, and the battle of Milne bay. All this kept a huge number of Japanese forces busy and hence was a huge relief to US forces at Guadalcanal. So, who is responsible for the US victory at Guadalcanal? I think that the complexity of how the war unfolded makes the question irrelevant. Base 615, The theme of this thread is ANZAC day, which commemorates the struggles and sacrifices of ANZAC soldiers in the World Wars 1 & 2. It doesn't glorify war - it honors those who fought, for whatever reason, and commemorates the meaning of their battles in Australian and NZ history. As for your reference to Iraqi civilians, it is totally inappropriate. Current tragedies such as the ongoing war in Iraq do not reduce the honor earned by the ANZACs, and bringing them up in this context can be regarded as disrespect towards those who deserve only respect. Thanks for your attention, Hassan __________________ Hassan Adly Red Sea Discovery "Today I will finally see the sea again, which will smell of salt, wind, sand - and the cold of winter. Finally I will not only travel on it but dive in it, again I will become water, a bird - and I will remember the feeling of gliding above the abyss" Elena Sundukova, tragically lost at sea, January 2007 Last edited by Hassan Adly; April 26th, 2008 at 10:48 AM.